Protestos na Ucrânia e a possibilidade de guerra civil

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papatango

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Re: Protestos na Ucrânia e a possibilidade de guerra civil
« Responder #1051 em: Agosto 21, 2014, 01:08:50 am »
falaste em links, dê exemplos (quais são os meus links que o estão a incomodar, toda a gente deixa aqui links) seja concreto no seu ponto e naquilo em que me quer criticar. exponha aqui as mentiras dos meus links. ou aproveite para questionar o seu conteúdo e sair enriquecido.

Filho, a propaganda fascista que tu nos bolsas em cima, é apenas isso, propaganda.
Até hoje, a única coisa de jeito que aqui colocaste, e a que as pessoas normais poderiam dar crédito, foi uma afirmação de um jornalista e especialista em «Social Media» canadiano de origem ucraniana, que estava na missão da OSCE e que disse que aquilo pareciam buracos de balas.

Mesmo assim, foi suficiente para despertar o meu interesse. Para depois perceber que o homem afinal tinha reconhecido que embora «achasse», não tinha de facto qualquer conhecimento sobre o assunto.

De resto, os posts de russos a dizer coisas, com as nikulinas de serviço (as mesmas que viram o B777 da Malaysya a 10km de altitude num ceu quase completamente tapado com nuvens), a produzir notícias que 24 a 48 horas depois se prova serem mentira, têm a validade e a credibilidade de um rolo de papel higiénico usado.

A propaganda da Russia fascista e a desavergonhada contra-informação  e desinformação que a maioria das pessoas normais já começou a desmontar apenas servem para dar credibilidade à tese de que os fascistas russos, de facto atingiram o avião.

Como é evidente, ninguém com um centimetro de cérebro, acredita que os governo russo queriam abater o avião, ou que os mercenários russos fizeram de propósito. Mas é mais que óbvio, perante as circunstâncias conhecidas, que um sistema BUK-M1, ou melhor um lançador desgarrado, apenas com o radar de controlo de tiro, disparou um missil achando que estava a atingir um avião da malvada junta nazista-kievita-ladra-trilateralistico-bilderbergueira.

Já deu para perceber, pelo menos isso.
E como é evidente, com a capacidade que os fascistas têm para produzir cola para as teorias conspirativas, já se sabe que os Su-25 vão sempre conseguir andar a 10km de altitude, e nem precisam de combustível...

Aquilo é uma máquina ... ou não fosse material soviético  :mrgreen:  :mrgreen:  ...
É muito mais fácil enganar uma pessoa, que explicar-lhe que foi enganada ...
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Re: Protestos na Ucrânia e a possibilidade de guerra civil
« Responder #1052 em: Agosto 21, 2014, 08:15:54 am »
Ukraine crisis: the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... tists.html
"All the world's a stage" William Shakespeare

 

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Cabeça de Martelo

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Re: Protestos na Ucrânia e a possibilidade de guerra civil
« Responder #1053 em: Agosto 21, 2014, 11:16:50 am »
:?:

Citar
Interestingly, many of the men in the battalion are Russians from eastern Ukraine who wear masks because they fear their relatives in rebel-controlled areas could be persecuted if their identities are revealed.

Phantom said he was such a Russian but that he was opposed to Moscow supporting “terrorists” in his homeland: “I volunteered and all I demanded was a gun and the possibility to defend my country.

Expliquem-me isto se faz favor.
Contra a Esquerda woke e a Direita populista marchar, marchar!...

 

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Re: Protestos na Ucrânia e a possibilidade de guerra civil
« Responder #1054 em: Agosto 22, 2014, 12:25:59 am »
penso que a questão da nacionalidade é secundária. o cocktail que funciona para eles parece ser nazismo, ressentimento antirusso e experiência de combate de preferência.

as autoridades da novarussia estão atentas ao social media. se és um habitante de donetsk ou lugansk e publicas a favor de kiev podes ser visitado, se combates do lado de kiev então é melhor fazeres como o outro e vestires uma máscara.
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Re: Protestos na Ucrânia e a possibilidade de guerra civil
« Responder #1056 em: Agosto 22, 2014, 06:09:21 pm »
http://gizadeathstar.com/2014/08/troubl ... e-germany/


THAT TROUBLESOME HANDELSBLATT ARTICLE IN GERMANY…


Posted on August 22, 2014 by Joseph P. Farrell

Recently I talked about an article in the German newspaper Handelsblatt, which occupies, if one were to draw an analogy, a position within the German media rather similar to the London Times in Great Britain, a centrist-right newspaper. You’ll recall, that the Handelsblatt broke – rather dramatically at that – with the subservient Merkel-Obama scripting that apparently has become the norm for the German media in the wake of Washington’s all-but-brainless call for sanctions on Russia, and its even more brainless attempt to punish European corporations and banks – BNP Paribas comes to mind – for continuing to deal with Russia. Indeed, as I’ve pointed out, Berlin, Rome, Paris, and now even the center of Perfide Albion, London itself, plan to bring up the issue of Washington’s unipolar hamfistedness(see Splendid Isolation: The Revolt Against Unpolarism has Now Spread to France).

Well, it so happens that the folks at Zero Hedge have kindly posted the entire Handelsblatt article, and it’s a no-punches-pulled, no-holds-barred condemnation of the West’s policy, and Chancellorin Merkel’s apparent lap-poodle status in submission to it:

German Handelsblatt Releases Stunning Anti-West Op-Ed, Asks If “West Rabble-Rousers Are On The Payroll Of The KGB”

Most telling is the Handelsblatt article clearly knows who is behind what, and that it is the West that is the instigator of aggression, not Russia, rather an interesting take on things for a paper like the Handelsblatt:


“Who deceived who first?

Did it all start with the Russian invasion of the Crimean or did the West first promote the destabilization of the Ukraine? Does Russia want to expand into the West or NATO into the East? Or did maybe two world-powers meet at the same door in the middle of the night, driven by very similar intentions towards a defenseless third that now pays for the resulting quagmire with the first phases of a civil war?”

And it leaves no doubt who is driving the demonization of Russia:


“Angela Merkel can hardly claim these mitigating circumstances for herself. Geography forces every German Chancellor to be a bit more serious. As neighbors of Russia, as part of the European community bound in destiny, as recipient of energy and supplier of this and that, we Germans have a clearly more vital interest in stability and communication. We cannot afford to look at Russia through the eyes of the American Tea Party.

“Every mistake starts with a mistake in thinking. And we are making this mistake if we believe that only the other party profits from our economic relationship and thus will suffer when this relationship stops. If economic ties were maintained for mutual profit, then severing them will lead to mutual loss. Punishment and self-punishment are the same thing in this case.

“Even the idea that economic pressure and political isolation would bring Russia to its knees was not really thought all the way through. Even if we could succeed: what good would Russia be on its knees? How can you want to live together in the European house with a humiliated people whose elected leadership is treated like a pariah and whose citizens you might have to support in the coming winter.”

Drawing on the example of the former mayor of West Berlin, and later Chancellor of West Germany, Willi Brandt, the article makes what I think is a very significant statement:


“Following this lead – even if calculatingly and somewhat reluctantly as in the case of Merkel – does not protect the German people, but may well endanger it. This fact remains a fact even if it was not the American but the Russians who were responsible for the original damage in the Crimean and in eastern Ukraine.”

In other words, the Handelsblatt wants a German foreign policy that is best for Germany, not Washington, and if that means seeking a reconciliation with Russia, so be it. This, I suspect, is thus a message, occurring as it does amid rumors of private talks between President Putin and Chancellorin Merkel, in which, it is alleged, Germany would recognize Russia’s absorption of the Crimea back into the Russian Federation, in return for stabilized relations and energy guarantees. And there’s a reminder about what American military strength has really accomplished:


“The American tendency to verbal and then also military escalation, the isolation, demonization, and attacking of enemies has not proven effective. The last successful major military action the US conducted was the Normandy landing. Everything else – Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan – was a clear failure. Moving NATO units towards the Polish border and thinking about arming Ukraine is a continuation of a lack of diplomacy by the military means.”

And finally, the Handelsblatt is implying the same question that has been on many of your minds, as well as mine: why the counter-intuitive foreign policy coming out of Washington?:


“Brandt and Bahr have never reached for the tool of economic sanctions. They knew why: there are no recorded cases in which countries under sanctions apologized for their behavior and were obedient ever after. On the contrary: collective movements start in support of the sanctioned, as is the case today in Russia. The country was hardly ever more unified behind their president than now. This could almost lead you to think that the rabble-rousers of the West are on the payroll of the Russian secret service.”

Indeed.

One thing seems clear, however, and that is the subservient media relationship to the Merkel government is either being broken, or perhaps, just perhaps, this is a more subtle way of that government stating what its true convictions and intentions may ultimately be.

See you on the flip side.
Ai de ti Lusitânia, que dominarás em todas as nações...
 

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Re: Protestos na Ucrânia e a possibilidade de guerra civil
« Responder #1057 em: Agosto 22, 2014, 08:55:04 pm »
https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2014 ... more-12111

Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault
The Liberal Delusions That Provoked Putin


According to the prevailing wisdom in the West, the Ukraine crisis can be blamed almost entirely on Russian aggression. Russian President Vladimir Putin, the argument goes, annexed Crimea out of a long-standing desire to resuscitate the Soviet empire, and he may eventually go after the rest of Ukraine, as well as other countries in eastern Europe. In this view, the ouster of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych in February 2014 merely provided a pretext for Putin’s decision to order Russian forces to seize part of Ukraine.

But this account is wrong: the United States and its European allies share most of the responsibility for the crisis. The taproot of the trouble is NATO enlargement, the central element of a larger strategy to move Ukraine out of Russia’s orbit and integrate it into the West. At the same time, the EU’s expansion eastward and the West’s backing of the pro-democracy movement in Ukraine — beginning with the Orange Revolution in 2004 — were critical elements, too. Since the mid-1990s, Russian leaders have adamantly opposed NATO enlargement, and in recent years, they have made it clear that they would not stand by while their strategically important neighbor turned into a Western bastion. For Putin, the illegal overthrow of Ukraine’s democratically elected and pro-Russian president — which he rightly labeled a “coup” — was the final straw. He responded by taking Crimea, a peninsula he feared would host a NATO naval base, and working to destabilize Ukraine until it abandoned its efforts to join the West…

The crisis there shows that realpolitik remains relevant — and states that ignore it do so at their own peril. U.S. and European leaders blundered in attempting to turn Ukraine into a Western stronghold on Russia’s border. Now that the consequences have been laid bare, it would be an even greater mistake to continue this misbegotten policy…

Then NATO began looking further east. At its April 2008 summit in Bucharest, the alliance considered admitting Georgia and Ukraine. The George W. Bush administration supported doing so, but France and Germany opposed the move for fear that it would unduly antagonize Russia. In the end, NATO’s members reached a compromise: the alliance did not begin the formal process leading to membership, but it issued a statement endorsing the aspirations of Georgia and Ukraine and boldly declaring, “These countries will become members of NATO.”

Moscow, however, did not see the outcome as much of a compromise. Alexander Grushko, then Russia’s deputy foreign minister, said, “Georgia’s and Ukraine’s membership in the alliance is a huge strategic mistake which would have most serious consequences for pan-European security.” Putin maintained that admitting those two countries to NATO would represent a “direct threat” to Russia.

Russia’s invasion of Georgia in August 2008 should have dispelled any remaining doubts about Putin’s determination to prevent Georgia and Ukraine from joining NATO…

The EU, too, has been marching eastward. In May 2008, it unveiled its Eastern Partnership initiative, a program to foster prosperity in such countries as Ukraine and integrate them into the EU economy. Not surprisingly, Russian leaders view the plan as hostile to their country’s interests.

The West’s final tool for peeling Kiev away from Moscow has been its efforts to spread Western values and promote democracy in Ukraine and other post-Soviet states, a plan that often entails funding pro-Western individuals and organizations. Victoria Nuland, the U.S. assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs, estimated in December 2013 that the United States had invested more than $5 billion since 1991 to help Ukraine achieve “the future it deserves.”

When Russian leaders look at Western social engineering in Ukraine, they worry that their country might be next. And such fears are hardly groundless. In September 2013, Gershman wrote in The Washington Post, “Ukraine’s choice to join Europe will accelerate the demise of the ideology of Russian imperialism that Putin represents.” He added: “Russians, too, face a choice, and Putin may find himself on the losing end not just in the near abroad but within Russia itself.”

CREATING A CRISIS

Imagine the American outrage if China built an impressive military alliance and tried to include Canada and Mexico.

The West’s triple package of policies — NATO enlargement, EU expansion, and democracy promotion — added fuel to a fire waiting to ignite. The spark came in November 2013, when Yanukovych rejected a major economic deal he had been negotiating with the EU and decided to accept a $15 billion Russian counteroffer instead. That decision gave rise to antigovernment demonstrations that escalated over the following three months and that by mid-February had led to the deaths of some one hundred protesters. Western emissaries hurriedly flew to Kiev to resolve the crisis. On February 21, the government and the opposition struck a deal that allowed Yanukovych to stay in power until new elections were held. But it immediately fell apart, and Yanukovych fled to Russia the next day. The new government in Kiev was pro-Western and anti-Russian to the core, and it contained four high-ranking members who could legitimately be labeled neofascists.

Although the full extent of U.S. involvement has not yet come to light, it is clear that Washington backed the coup. Nuland and Republican Senator John McCain participated in antigovernment demonstrations, and Geoffrey Pyatt, the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, proclaimed after Yanukovych’s toppling that it was “a day for the history books.” As a leaked telephone recording revealed, Nuland had advocated regime change and wanted the Ukrainian politician Arseniy Yatsenyuk to become prime minister in the new government, which he did. No wonder Russians of all persuasions think the West played a role in Yanukovych’s ouster.

Next, Putin put massive pressure on the new government in Kiev to discourage it from siding with the West against Moscow, making it clear that he would wreck Ukraine as a functioning state before he would allow it to become a Western stronghold on Russia’s doorstep.

THE DIAGNOSIS

Ukraine serves as a buffer state of enormous strategic importance to Russia. No Russian leader would tolerate a military alliance that was Moscow’s mortal enemy until recently moving into Ukraine…

After all, the United States does not tolerate distant great powers deploying military forces anywhere in the Western Hemisphere, much less on its borders.

The United States and its allies should abandon their plan to westernize Ukraine and instead aim to make it a neutral buffer.


Secretary of State John Kerry’s response to the Crimea crisis reflected this same perspective: “You just don’t in the twenty-first century behave in nineteenth-century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped-up pretext.”

In essence, the two sides have been operating with different playbooks: Putin and his compatriots have been thinking and acting according to realist dictates, whereas their Western counterparts have been adhering to liberal ideas about international politics. The result is that the United States and its allies unknowingly provoked a major crisis over Ukraine.

    BLAME GAME

    In that same 1998 interview, Kennan predicted that NATO expansion would provoke a crisis, after which the proponents of expansion would “say that we always told you that is how the Russians are.” As if on cue, most Western officials have portrayed Putin as the real culprit in the Ukraine predicament. In March, according to The New York Times, German Chancellor Angela Merkel implied that Putin was irrational, telling Obama that he was “in another world.”
    [Editor: the behavior of Angela Merkel is one of the greater disappointments in the past few years]

    If Putin were committed to creating a greater Russia, signs of his intentions would almost certainly have arisen before February 22. But there is virtually no evidence that he was bent on taking Crimea, much less any other territory in Ukraine, before that date.

    A WAY OUT

    Given that most Western leaders continue to deny that Putin’s behavior might be motivated by legitimate security concerns, it is unsurprising that they have tried to modify it by doubling down on their existing policies and have punished Russia to deter further aggression. Although Kerry has maintained that “all options are on the table,” neither the United States nor its NATO allies are prepared to use force to defend Ukraine. The West is relying instead on economic sanctions to coerce Russia into ending its support for the insurrection in eastern Ukraine.

    There is a solution to the crisis in Ukraine, however — although it would require the West to think about the country in a fundamentally new way. The United States and its allies should abandon their plan to westernize Ukraine and instead aim to make it a neutral buffer between NATO and Russia, akin to Austria’s position during the Cold War. Western leaders should acknowledge that Ukraine matters so much to Putin that they cannot support an anti-Russian regime there….

    Some may argue that changing policy toward Ukraine at this late date would seriously damage U.S. credibility around the world.
    [Editor: not to worry, in all polls world wide is the US seen as the greatest threat to peace. It is difficult to create an even worse image of the US]

[foreignaffairs.com] – Entire article.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ ... ests-fault
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papatango

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Re: Protestos na Ucrânia e a possibilidade de guerra civil
« Responder #1058 em: Agosto 22, 2014, 11:34:12 pm »
Citar
CREATING A CRISIS
Imagine the American outrage if China built an impressive military alliance and tried to include Canada and Mexico.
Este inteligente, não olhou para o mapa e não viu Cuba, a Venezuela ou a Nicaragua. Havana fica mais perto de Washington que Los Angeles.
De última vez que vi, os americanos ainda não tinham invadido a Venezuela para depois a anexarem.


A estória absolutamente cadavérica e cretina de que a crise na Ucrânia foi criada pelos países democraticos e não pelas pulsões imperiais do regime fascista russo, são no minimo anedotas.

Putin, informa o mundo que o fim da URSS foi uma catástrofe. Os ideologos fascistas russo,s que o aconselham, apregoam a sete ventos a necessidade de retomar as antigas repúblicas da UIRSS e incorpora-las na Russia, de repente, invadem a Ucrânia, e a culpa é do ocidente.

Os povos que estiveram debaixo da bota de ferro do imperialismo russo disfarçado de comunismo internacionalista, não gostam de ser esmagados pela bota.
Essa é a verdade que a imprensa da Russia fascista e os seus esbirros prostitutos ocidentais tentam ocultar, com um continuo fluir de teorias conspirativas, contra-informação e desinformação.

São às centenas os hoaxes, as niculinas que aparecem em vários lugares, disfarçadas de diferentes profissões sempre a dizer a mesma coisa. São às centenas os russos que se fazem passar por ucranianos, para dar a impressão de que existe uma guerra civil na Ucrânia, em vez de uma invasão por parte do regime fascista do Kremlin.

Na Crimeia, até que a menina do Kremlin controlou a situação, afirmou sempre que era mentira que existissem soldados russos. Depois confirmou que afinal era verdade. Em Luhansk e Donetsk, mais do mesmo: Mentiras, mentiras, mentiras e mais mentiras... Depois, a corja de esbirros prostitutos, tenta criar a ideia de que afinal, o Reich não tem nada a ver com isto, e é culpa dos malvados democratas, essa corja de homossexuais trilateralistco-birderbergueses...

E tudo ao mesmo tempo em que violando acordos, contra a Cruz Vermelha, e violando tudo o que tinham dito, os fascistas introduziram mais de 200 camiões «humanitários», que seguramente estão carregados de AK-47 humanitárias, balas humanitárias, mísseis humanitários, e rações de combate humanitárias.

Os russos como se sabe são tudo boa gente, e nunca na vida mentiram...


E claro, não se deve provocar o Putin, não se deve enfrentar os ditadores. Se o mundo não tivesse enfrentado Hitler, Estaline e os criminosos soviéticos, gostava de saber onde estariam esses defensores da cobardia.
São a mesma corja que na década de 1980, íam para as ruas para «lutar» contra a instalação dos mísseis Pershing II na Europa, porque diziam que não se devia enfrentar os russos, porque era perigoso.
São os mesmos que íam para a rua gritar BETTER RED THAN DEAD, fazendo apelos a que as democracias se rendessem, porque pelo menos assim podiamos ficar vivos.

Temos a obrigação de lembrar e NÃO TEMOS O DIREITO DE ESQUECER
É muito mais fácil enganar uma pessoa, que explicar-lhe que foi enganada ...
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Re: Protestos na Ucrânia e a possibilidade de guerra civil
« Responder #1059 em: Agosto 23, 2014, 09:10:36 pm »


T-64 destruido por RPG. Mas afinal é suposto as placas de ERA fazerem o quê? Detonar? Porque na 2ª foto foi furada...  :shock:
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Re: Protestos na Ucrânia e a possibilidade de guerra civil
« Responder #1060 em: Agosto 23, 2014, 11:07:36 pm »
===== Aviso ao fórum =====

A próxima mensagem que tiver referências a: "excremento", "m*rda", "bosta", travesti", "p*ta", "prostituta", ou que afirme que determinado elemento do fórum sobre de alcoolismo ou é dependente de drogas, será editada ou mesmo eliminada sem aviso prévio.

Pel'A Moderação,
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Re: Protestos na Ucrânia e a possibilidade de guerra civil
« Responder #1061 em: Agosto 24, 2014, 11:29:36 pm »
Citação de: "HSMW"


T-64 destruido por RPG. Mas afinal é suposto as placas de ERA fazerem o quê? Detonar? Porque na 2ª foto foi furada...  :mrgreen:

Cumprimentos
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Re: Protestos na Ucrânia e a possibilidade de guerra civil
« Responder #1062 em: Agosto 25, 2014, 07:31:46 pm »
O tanque T-64, deve ter sido abatido por um Su-25, que o atacou a 10.000m de altitude  :mrgreen:


A blindagem reativa é uma solução de recurso para vários tipos de armas que utilizam projeteis de carga oca.
Um dos problemas do sistema, reside no fato de em combate prolongado, a blindagem funcionar (defletir o fluxo de metal que perfura o tanque) uma vez, mas obviamente não pode funcionar uma segunda vez.
Além disso, os russos estão a utilizar o último tipo de foguetes anti-tanque RPG-29 com ogiva dupla. A primeira ogiva rebenta a blindagem (que normalmente reage ao enorme aumento da pressão do ar) e a segunda perfura.

Os ucranianos queixaram-se de que não estão a combater nenhum grupo de rebeldes, mas sim o exército russo, com equipamento russo.
O T-64, mesmo o T-64BV, não está em condições de resistir aos novos sistemas anti-tanque.
Para isso é necessário não apenas novo material, mas acima de tudo capacidade de coordenação entre o tanque e o grupo que o deve acompanhar.

Nenhum dos lados dispõe da parafernália eletrónica que caracteriza os exércitos da NATO, mas os mísseis russos são de uma outra geração. O T-64B é um tanque de 1976. Os ucranianos estudaram o BV que é da década de 1980. É este que temos visto em todo este conflito é o T-64BV, caracteriza-se pelo tipo de blocos de blindagem reativa à frente e na torre. Os ucranianos nunca chegaram a colocar ao serviço o T-64BM, pelo menos em números significativos.

O outro problema, é a durabilidade dos módulos. Mesmo sem serem utilizadas, as blindagens da década de 1980 deveriam ser substituidas com intervalos de 5 a 7 anos. Na Chechenia, houve comandantes russos que preferiram nem utilizar os blocos, porque tornavam o tanque mais lento. Hoje há quem afirme que foi um erro, porque mesmo que não funcionem todos, pode ser que alguns funcionem e cumpram a sua função.
É muito mais fácil enganar uma pessoa, que explicar-lhe que foi enganada ...
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Re: Protestos na Ucrânia e a possibilidade de guerra civil
« Responder #1063 em: Agosto 26, 2014, 10:31:00 pm »
magnânima russia

RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTRY STATEMENT ON THE START OF THE DELIVERY OF HUMANITARIAN RELIEF AID TO SOUTHEASTERN UKRAINE
http://www.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/0/8cbbd5bfe ... 3c003d4df0

Russian humanitarian aid distribution begins in E. Ukraine
http://rt.com/news/182692-ukraine-aid-donetsk-lugansk/

Mission completed: Moscow confirms delivery of aid to E. Ukraine, trucks return to Russia
http://rt.com/news/182332-humanitarian- ... -ministry/

mais uma lição para alguns foristas

Western-propaganda-exposed-as-Russian-convoy-invades-Ukraine-with-humanitarian-aid
http://www.sott.net/article/284315-West ... tarian-aid
"All the world's a stage" William Shakespeare

 

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"All the world's a stage" William Shakespeare