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Portugal / Re: Equipamento a oferecer à Ucrânia
« Última mensagem por HSMW em Hoje às 01:57:23 am »How Ukraine Built the Flamingo Cruise Missile?
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2
Exército Português / Re: Rangers, Comandos, Paras, etc
« Última mensagem por Duarte em Hoje às 12:16:12 am »3
Marinha Portuguesa / Re: O Reapetrechamento da Marinha
« Última mensagem por Duarte em Hoje às 12:06:41 am »
porque uma RWS de 12.7mm não faz absolutamente nada para CIWS...e aliás mesmo a Phalanx já não dá para muito nos dias de hoje...~~
O idial era uniformizar tudo com RAM
Neste caso será melhor os dois sistemas CIWS dos NRE+ serem algo mais moderno.... O que sugeres?
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Marinha Portuguesa / Re: O Reapetrechamento da Marinha
« Última mensagem por Drecas em Novembro 15, 2025, 11:42:27 pm »porque uma RWS de 12.7mm não faz absolutamente nada para CIWS...e aliás mesmo a Phalanx já não dá para muito nos dias de hoje...~~Eu também não percebo.... se é para instalar 2 RWS 12,7mm nas VdG, que além disto já têm uma peça 100m, para quê meter um segundo CIWS numa fragata que é para aguentar apenas mais 10 anos no máximo? Faz muito mais sentido instalar estes 2 CIWS + dois novos (ou usados..) nos novos NRE+, navios que irão servir 30+ anos...Também não se sabe quando é que as gama vão navegar! Eu parto do pressuposto que os dois ciws armazenados serão instalados nas VG no famoso MLU ficam com 2 e quando as retirarem de serviço mudem para os NRE+. Resta saber é se o que está instalado na Vasco da gama pode ir já para um dos reabastecedor. Ainda não entendi muito bem o querem fazer como aquiloQue armamento terão? O Duarte falava em armamento!Se estás a falar dos NRE+ serão 2 RWS e futuramente 2 phalanx das Vasco da Gama...
Se era dos NPC ia ser 3 RWS
Phalanx das Vasco da Gama ou os 2 armazenados destinados ao mitico NAVPOL?
é que se vão armar as duas Meko restantes com 2 CIWS cada, não chega (partindo que o total atual é 5), vai ter de ser adquirido +1 pelo menos
O idial era uniformizar tudo com RAM
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Marinha Portuguesa / Re: Substituição das Fragatas Classe Vasco da Gama
« Última mensagem por Duarte em Novembro 15, 2025, 11:37:27 pm »Eu pergunto: Agora que a Suécia e a Finlândia fazem parte da NATO, o Mar Báltico assemelha-se mais a um aquário, onde é fácil caçar submarinos russos. Quantos chegarão aos nossos mares? 
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Which frigate design is inherently quieter and therefore better for high-end ASW, the answer is NOT close:
🥇 Type 26 (most quiet in the world among surface combatants)
🥈 FREMM (especially FREMM ASW) / FREMM EVO
🥉 F110 (very quiet, but slightly below FREMM/Type 26 due to propulsion choices)
🟦 FDI (good quieting for a compact hull, but not top-tier)
🟧 MEKO A-200 (moderate; not optimised for extreme ASW quieting)
🟨 Arrowhead 140 / Type 31 (general-purpose hull, not ASW-optimised)
⚓ Detailed Ranking and Why
1. TYPE 26 — “acoustic ninja” (best by far)
Full CODLOG propulsion (diesel-electric quiet mode, gas turbine for sprint).
Raft-mounted machinery + very low acoustic signature design from the keel up.
Designed as a dedicated ASW frigate for the RN and RAN.
Result:
➡️ Quietest surface combatant currently in production globally.
➡️ Superior passive sonar performance, best self-noise masking.
BUT: Too slow to deliver for Portugal by 2030 and very expensive.
2. FREMM ASW / FREMM EVO — excellent quieting
French/Italian FREMM use a CODLAG propulsion with very efficient electric motors in ASW mode.
Very low radiated noise; the French Aquitaine-class is considered one of the world’s quietest ASW platforms after Type 26.
FREMM EVO keeps this philosophy with modern upgrades.
Result:
➡️ Top-tier ASW quieting, second only to Type 26.
➡️ Very good passive sonar detection ranges.
BUT: Large, expensive, and production slots are tight.
3. F110 (Spain) — very strong but not as optimized as FREMM
CODLAG propulsion (diesel generators + electric motors + gas turbine).
Rafted machinery and ASW-focused hull form.
Very strong sonar suite (e.g., CAPTAS-4).
Result:
➡️ Quiet, modern ASW frigate, slightly noisier than FREMM but still high-end.
BUT: Delivery by 2030 is unlikely.
4. FDI — good, but less ASW-specialized
Optimized for AAW + general-purpose, not pure ASW.
CODAD propulsion (four diesels), not as quiet as electric drive.
Strong sonar fit but hull/propulsion generate more inherent noise.
Result:
➡️ Good ASW capability, but not a dedicated ASW hull.
5. MEKO A-200 — moderate quieting
Uses CODAG-WARP propulsion (waterjets + props).
Waterjets reduce cavitation at some speeds but diesel-driven machinery raises noise floor.
Not designed as a pure ASW frigate: more of a multi-role / GP export hull.
Result:
➡️ Quieter than older designs but far from FREMM/F110/Type 26 levels.
➡️ Adequate for patrol + general ASW, not high-end ASW dominance.
6. Arrowhead 140 / Type 31 — lowest ASW quieting
CODAD (4 diesels).
GP design, not optimized for silent operation.
Depends heavily on towed-sonar speed limits because self-noise is higher.
Result:
➡️ Not suitable for high-end ASW unless massively modified and operated at very low speed.
👉 Bottom line for ASW quietness
If Portugal’s priority is maximum stealth and acoustic superiority, the order is:
Type 26 >> FREMM / FREMM EVO > F110 > FDI > MEKO A-200 > Arrowhead 140
But combining ASW quieting + realistic 2030 delivery + SAFE eligibility + budget, the true practical options shrink:
Realistic AND good ASW:
FREMM EVO (excellent ASW, but expensive and slot-limited)
F110 (very good ASW, but delivery risk)
FDI (acceptable ASW, but not elite)
MEKO A-200 (moderate ASW but a practical SAFE candidate)
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Marinha Portuguesa / Re: NPC - Navios de Patrulha Costeira (2024)
« Última mensagem por Duarte em Novembro 15, 2025, 10:53:06 pm »Citar
Top Alternatives Under 500 Tons (Fastest to Procure)
These are all proven, exported, low-risk, and deliverable in 6–24 months depending on yard availability.
1) Damen Stan Patrol 4207 (≈240 t)
The single fastest-available option worldwide.
Displacement: ~240 t
Length: 42 m
Speed: 24–26 kn
Endurance: 4–5 days
Crew: 16–20
Pros:
Very widely produced (60+ units worldwide)
Multiple hulls often under construction → fastest delivery
Extremely reliable, low OPEX
Can be built at Damen’s global yards or under licence (Portugal option)
Cons:
Not a trimaran; conventional coastal patrol profile
Estimated delivery:
Existing hull: 6–12 months
New build: 12–18 months
2) Damen Stan Patrol 5009 (≈450 t)
Bigger, more capable version still under 500 tons.
Displacement: ~450–480 t
Length: 50 m
Speed: 25–30 kn (ax-bow design)
Endurance: 7+ days
Pros:
High speed + superb rough-weather seakeeping
Large deck space
Extremely export-proven
Cons:
Slightly more expensive; still monohull
Weapon/sensor integration extra
Estimated delivery: 12–24 months
3) Austal Patrol 40–60m Series (300–500 t)
(Austal monohull and catamaran options — closest to trimaran heritage in small craft)
Displacement: 250–480 t depending on model
Speed: 25–32 kn
Hull forms: monohull, catamaran, and small trimaran-influenced designs
Pros:
Australia/Philippines patrol boats show rapid production
Fast, light, great acceleration
Catamaran variants offer large deck area (closest to NPC trimaran concept)
Cons:
Aluminium hull (more corrosion management)
Build slots depend on Austal schedule
Estimated delivery: 12–24 months
4) Fassmer 40m / 50m Patrol (300–450 t)
German OPV/PV family, internationally exported.
Displacement: 300–450 t
Speed: 20–25 kn
Pros:
Flexible modular design
Efficient hulls, low crew
Good reliability and EU industrial reputation
Cons:
Delivery slots vary — not as fast as Damen typically
Estimated delivery: 16–30 months
5) Lürssen 40m Coastal Patrol (≈350–400 t)
High-quality, military-grade EU coastal patrol vessel.
Displacement: 350–400 t
Speed: 25–30 kn
Pros:
Extremely robust naval pedigree
Good for boarding, SAR, EEZ patrol
Cons:
Usually costlier
Not mass-standardized → availability varies
Estimated delivery: 18–30 months
6) SAFE-boats / Metal Shark 85–110 ft Patrol (80–150 t)
Smaller but ultra-fast U.S. patrol vessels
Displacement: 80–150 t
Length: 26–34 m
Speed: 35–45 kn
Pros:
Very fast
Rapid production (months)
Cons:
Much smaller
Limited endurance
Not a true replacement for NPC trimaran concept
Estimated delivery: 6–12 months
🟦 Closest to NPC Trimaran’s Concept (Deck Space + Speed)
If you want trimaran-like benefits under 500 tons:
Austal Catamaran 40–60m
Large deck space
High speed
Good stability
350–500 t range
→ This is the closest hullform analogue to the Portuguese disruptive NPC trimaran while avoiding risk of a novel prototype.
🟩 Best Options by Priority
If fastest delivery is #1:
Damen Stan Patrol 4207
Metal Shark / SAFE Boats (if smaller size acceptable)
Damen 5009
If closest to trimaran performance:
Austal 40–60m catamaran
Damen 5009 (Ax-Bow)
If strongest EU industrial solution:
Damen 4207 / 5009
Fassmer 40–50m
Lürssen 40m
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🇵🇹 Top Ranking — Best Overall for Portugal (<500 tons)
🥇 1st Place — Damen Stan Patrol 5009 (≈450 t)
Best balanced option.
✔ Good seakeeping (AX-bow)
✔ Under 500 tons but has OPV-like space
✔ Short delivery times (12–24 months)
✔ Already widely exported
✔ Very low technical and integration risk
Why #1:
It offers the closest combination of seakeeping, endurance, deck space, and availability that the NPC trimaran was aiming for — but with vastly lower risk.
🥈 2nd Place — Damen Stan Patrol 4207 (≈240 t)
Fastest to deliver; best low-risk solution.
✔ Extremely short delivery timelines
✔ Many hulls under construction globally
✔ Lowest OPEX
✔ Proven workhorse globally
Why #2:
A superb coastal patrol/SAR platform, but smaller than the NPC concept — limited deck space for drones/future systems compared to the 5009.
🥉 3rd Place — Austal 40–60 m Catamaran (300–500 t)
Closest to trimaran performance.
✔ Very fast
✔ Excellent deck area
✔ Best seakeeping in small craft category
Why #3:
This is the closest hullform analogue to NPC’s disruptive trimaran idea.
Ranked lower than Damen because of aluminium maintenance + less standardized export track.
4th — Fassmer 40–50 m Patrol (300–450 t)
✔ Excellent build quality
✔ EU-based, low political risk
✔ Good seakeeping and endurance
Why not higher:
Delivery slots vary; not as fast or standardized as Damen.
5th — Lürssen 40 m Patrol (350–400 t)
✔ High-end naval quality
✔ Excellent endurance & systems
Why lower:
Generally slower production, higher cost, and over-spec’d for many Portuguese NPC missions.
6th — Metal Shark / SAFE Boats (80–150 t)
✔ Fastest delivery in absolute terms
✔ Very high speed
✔ Very low cost
Why last:
Too small for EEZ, pollution response, extended SAR, and not a true replacement for NPC trimaran ambitions.
📌 Final Ordered Ranking (Best → Least Suitable)
Damen Stan Patrol 5009
Damen Stan Patrol 4207
Austal 40–60 m Catamaran
Fassmer 40–50 m Patrol
Lürssen 40 m Patrol
Metal Shark / SAFE Boats
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Marinha Portuguesa / Re: NPC - Navios de Patrulha Costeira (2024)
« Última mensagem por Duarte em Novembro 15, 2025, 10:44:55 pm »https://opv.austal.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Austal_Offshore_Patrol_83_Data_Sheet_with_GA_Apr_2022.pdf
https://www.damen.com/vessels/defence-and-security/opv?view=models
https://www.damen.com/vessels/defence-and-security/opv?view=models
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Here are commercially-viable alternatives to Portugal’s NPC trimaran concept, sorted by how fast they can realistically be procured or put into service (short → longer), with pros/cons and sources so you can follow up.
Quick summary / top picks
Damen Stan Patrol / Damen OPV family — fastest commercial off-the-shelf option (lots of standardized hulls, global yards, proven export record). Good if you want short lead times, easy local build/transfer and low risk.
Austal (patrol / trimaran-derived designs) — offers trimaran experience (Independence LCS) and OPV/patrol monohulls/catamarans; good for higher speed and good seakeeping if you want a trimaran-like hullform. Lead times moderate; contractor has active production lines.
Austal Offshore Patrol 83 / similar proven OPV platforms — a concrete Austal OPV family option combining speed, endurance and easy exportability.
Navantia / Fincantieri / Lürssen (custom OPVs & PVs) — proven builders of bespoke OPVs and patrol vessels. Higher capability and customization but longer build slots and higher cost. Lürssen/large European yards are strong if you need more military features.
Existing Portuguese designs / in-service hulls (Viana do Castelo class or local build variants) — fastest to repeat or extend (uses local experience and supply chain), but not a trimaran. Good for industrial participation and short delivery if local yard capacity exists.
Why these (short explanations)
Damen Stan / OPV family — Damen’s standardized patrol and OPV lines (10–70 m range) are built in multiple yards, frequently sold “off the shelf” or via licensed construction/CO-production which shortens delivery. For quick availability you want standardized hulls like the Stan 4207 / Stan 5009 families or Damen’s OPV ranges.
Austal (trimaran experience) — if the primary reason Portugal likes the NPC trimaran is seakeeping, payload area and fuel efficiency, Austal is unique among large builders with operational trimaran experience (Independence LCS) and has OPV variants derived from proven aluminium platforms. That makes Austal a logical alternative if you want trimaran benefits with lower technical novelty risk.
Large German/Italian yards (Lürssen, Fincantieri, Navantia) — these yards build custom OPVs and patrol vessels with more advanced weapons/sensor fit and deep naval experience. Expect longer lead times but higher capability and stronger options for integration of naval combat systems.
Repeat a Portuguese/known design — extending a proven local class (e.g., Viana do Castelo) or licensing a slightly modified existing design is often the quickest route to additional hulls with Portuguese industrial participation.
Short practical decision guide (pick your priority)
Priority = fastest delivery / lowest technical risk → Damen Stan Patrol / Damen OPV (standardized, many yards, stock hulls possible).
Priority = keep trimaran benefits (speed, deck area) but reduce novelty risk → Austal (trimaran experience, OPV/patrol designs).
Austal: Corporate
Priority = highest capability / bespoke navy fit (sensors, weapons) → Lürssen / Navantia / Fincantieri (longer lead times).
Priority = fastest national / industrial solution → repeat/upgrade Viana do Castelo type or local licensed build.
Availability notes & examples
Damen: standardized production and global shipyards mean lead times can be shorter than bespoke designs; brokers/shipbrokers sometimes list Stan Patrol hulls already under construction that can be diverted or finished quickly.
Austal: actively delivering patrol boats and has OPV concepts (Offshore Patrol 83) that are offered to export customers — realistic medium-term option.
Portuguese NPC program timing: public reporting places the NPC concept and first commissioning timelines in the 2025–2026 window for early demonstrators/plans; that’s why procuring an existing off-the-shelf design may be far faster than developing a one-off novel trimaran.
Next practical steps I recommend (quick)
decide three priority axes (speed to service; cost; industrial participation / local build).
if speed is top, request Damen Stan Patrol options (sizes 30–90 m) and ask for available hulls under construction or immediate slots. (Damen often supports licensed local construction.)
damen.com
if you want trimaran performance but less novelty risk, get Austal to price their OPV/patrol variants (and ask about delivery slots).
Austal: Corporate
for a higher-capability navy option, obtain indicative offers from Lürssen/Navantia/Fincantieri — but expect longer lead times.
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Marinha Portuguesa / Re: Substituição das Fragatas Classe Vasco da Gama
« Última mensagem por Duarte em Novembro 15, 2025, 10:36:26 pm »Citar
Risk table — SAFE eligibility, delivery realism to 2030, and key actions
Option SAFE-eligibility (High/Med/Low) Main risks re: SAFE Likelihood delivered by 2030 (with SAFE) Top mitigations to improve eligibility
MEKO A-200 (TKMS) Medium–High. TKMS is EU-based and MEKO is modular — helps meet SAFE rules.
TKMS Group Website
Supply-chain content >35% non-EU (sensors, CMS, missiles); need contractual design-authority guarantee if category requires it. Possible if contract started immediately and some local build/content is planned (TKMS has delivered A-200s in ~38 months for Egypt).
Naval News
1) Perform a supply-chain content audit to show ≤35% non-EU or plan replacement with EU vendors. 2) Get written design-authority assurances from TKMS (no third-country IP blocks). 3) Seek a joint buyer partner in EU to boost SAFE case.
Arrowhead 140 / Type 31 High (UK/European build partners possible; modular and export-focused). UK components & post-Brexit rules could complicate content caps (political negotiation may be needed). Possible if fast contract and local workshare. Prioritise EU suppliers for key subsystems; structure workshare with Portuguese yards.
FREMM EVO Medium (Italian/French supply chains mostly EU; high capability) Production slots limited; high cost may still fit SAFE but need earlier ordering and assurances on non-EU content. Tight / slot-dependent — possible only with early contract. Early LOI and joint procurement; accept smaller initial buy to secure slot.
Naval Technology
FDI (Naval Group) Medium Very capable but domestic French priority and cost; must demonstrate EU-supply composition. Possible but tight if Portugal can secure slot soon. Early negotiations for an export slot and local-workshare commitments.
Council of the European Union
F110 (Navantia) Low–Medium Spanish domestic prioritisation; high tech content may include non-EU subcomponents; slots likely occupied. Unlikely for 2030 unless special deal / second-hand. Consider later purchase or used/demilitarised export options.
Naval Technology
Type 26 (BAE) Low Long lead times, heavy home-nation priority; unlikely to meet 2030 timeline. Unlikely for 2030. Not recommended for 2030 objective.
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Portugal / Re: Educação em Portugal
« Última mensagem por MMaria em Novembro 15, 2025, 10:33:28 pm »Criança brasileira de 9 anos tem dois dedos decepados em escola de Portugal
De acordo com a mãe, colegas seguiram o menino no banheiro e fecharam a porta sobre seus dedos. Ele teve que se arrastar para pedir socorro. Ministério da Educação de Portugal não se manifestou
https://www.estadao.com.br/internacional/estudante-brasileiro-de-9-anos-tem-dois-dedos-decepados-em-escola-de-portugal-npr/
De acordo com a mãe, colegas seguiram o menino no banheiro e fecharam a porta sobre seus dedos. Ele teve que se arrastar para pedir socorro. Ministério da Educação de Portugal não se manifestou
https://www.estadao.com.br/internacional/estudante-brasileiro-de-9-anos-tem-dois-dedos-decepados-em-escola-de-portugal-npr/
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Marinha Portuguesa / Re: Substituição das Fragatas Classe Vasco da Gama
« Última mensagem por Duarte em Novembro 15, 2025, 10:33:16 pm »Citar
| Option | SAFE-eligibility (High/Med/Low) | Main risks re: SAFE | Likelihood delivered by 2030 (with SAFE) | Top mitigations to improve eligibility |
| --------------------------- | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------: | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------: | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| **MEKO A-200 (TKMS)** | **Medium–High**. TKMS is EU-based and MEKO is modular — helps meet SAFE rules. ([TKMS Group Website][1]) | Supply-chain content >35% non-EU (sensors, CMS, missiles); need contractual design-authority guarantee if category requires it. | **Possible** if contract started immediately and some local build/content is planned (TKMS has delivered A-200s in ~38 months for Egypt). ([Naval News][2]) | 1) Perform a supply-chain content audit to show ≤35% non-EU or plan replacement with EU vendors. 2) Get written design-authority assurances from TKMS (no third-country IP blocks). 3) Seek a joint buyer partner in EU to boost SAFE case. |
| **Arrowhead 140 / Type 31** | **High** (UK/European build partners possible; modular and export-focused). | UK components & post-Brexit rules could complicate content caps (political negotiation may be needed). | **Possible** if fast contract and local workshare. | Prioritise EU suppliers for key subsystems; structure workshare with Portuguese yards. |
| **FREMM EVO** | **Medium** (Italian/French supply chains mostly EU; high capability) | Production slots limited; high cost may still fit SAFE but need earlier ordering and assurances on non-EU content. | **Tight / slot-dependent** — possible only with early contract. | Early LOI and joint procurement; accept smaller initial buy to secure slot. ([Naval Technology][3]) |
| **FDI (Naval Group)** | **Medium** | Very capable but domestic French priority and cost; must demonstrate EU-supply composition. | **Possible but tight** if Portugal can secure slot soon. | Early negotiations for an export slot and local-workshare commitments. ([Council of the European Union][4]) |
| **F110 (Navantia)** | **Low–Medium** | Spanish domestic prioritisation; high tech content may include non-EU subcomponents; slots likely occupied. | **Unlikely** for 2030 unless special deal / second-hand. | Consider later purchase or used/demilitarised export options. ([Naval Technology][3]) |
| **Type 26 (BAE)** | **Low** | Long lead times, heavy home-nation priority; unlikely to meet 2030 timeline. | **Unlikely** for 2030. | Not recommended for 2030 objective. |
| **MEKO (other variants)** | **Medium** | Similar to A-200: modularity helps, but supply chain must be audited. | **Possible** with same mitigations. | Same as MEKO A-200. ([Navy Lookout][5]) |
[1]: https://www.tkmsgroup.com/surface-vessels/frigates/meko-a-200?utm_source=chatgpt.com "Frigate MEKO ® A-200 - TKMS"
[2]: https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/euronaval-2022/2022/10/tkms-delivers-first-meko-a-200-en-frigate-to-egypt/?utm_source=chatgpt.com "TKMS Delivers First MEKO A-200 EN Frigate to Egypt - Naval News"
[3]: https://www.naval-technology.com/contractors/warship/thyssenkrupp/?utm_source=chatgpt.com "thyssenkrupp Marine Systems - Naval Technology"
[4]: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2025/05/27/safe-council-adopts-150-billion-boost-for-joint-procurement-on-european-security-and-defence/?utm_source=chatgpt.com "SAFE: Council adopts €150 billion boost for joint procurement on ..."
[5]: https://www.navylookout.com/in-focus-the-meko-a-200-type-31e-frigate-candidate/?utm_source=chatgpt.com "In focus – the MEKO A-200 Type 31e frigate candidate - Navy Lookout"