[mafarrico]

Airline Horror Spurs New Rush to Judgment

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/19/ai ... -judgment/

What Did US Spy Satellites See in Ukraine?

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/wh ... n-ukraine/

[Edu]

Muito sinceramente tenho dificuldade em entender como continua a haver duvidas sobre os autores do abate.

Eu vi na primeira pessoa em tempo real os separatistas através da RT vangloriarem-se que tinham abatido um An-26, mostrarem mesmo imagens da coluna de fumo do An-26. Mais tarde vem-se a provar que não foi nenhum An-26 abatido mais sim um avião civil, e que as imagens que inicialmente foram atribuidas ao An-26 foram mais tarde utilizadas para ilustrar o abate do avião civil. A RT foi inclusive uma das ultimas estações a noticiar a perda de um avião civil.

Vi eu já a CNN ter noticias do abate do avião civil e no mesmo momento ainda a RT noticiar um abate de um An-26 pelos separatistas. Como já disse isto vi eu, e a minha crença vem daí mais do que dos transportes de BUK's para a Russia (que eu acredito que estejam a acontecer).

Penso que é bastante visivel aqui no forum pessoas que independentemente das circunstancias defende sempre o mesmo lado (ocidental ou russo). Não é o meu caso, nesta discussão defendi o lado russo quando achei que tinham razão acuso agora quando vejo que é claramente culpado do que aconteceu. Penso que aqui no forum como eu vejo também o mafets que é bastante imparcial nas suas opiniões.

Seria interessante de parte a parte tentar discutir estes assuntos com mais imparcialidade.

[mafarrico]

Edu


nao estou a por em causa a sua palavra, mas quando estamos a defender uma teoria convem indicar a fonte. e possivel arranjar algum video com essa reportagem da rt dos separatistas a gabarem-se de terem abatido um an 26?


sobre imparcialidade neste materia eu tenho tentado mostrar os dois lados. basta ver os links que ja deixei (material da sbu e reportagens americanas). a versao ocidental e conhecida- separatistas apoderaram-se de buks ucranianos e por engano abateram um aviao civil. entretanto ja transferiram os buks para territorio russo. no entanto ha um conjunto de outra informacao que desafia a histeria dos media ocidentais. torna-se agora uma questao de analisar correctamente todos os dados.

como ja disse antes- que se faca uma investigacao internacional e que os responsaveis pela morte de civis inocentes sejam trazidos a justica.

[papatango]

Edu ->

Você não pode comparar a defesa intransigente da verdade, com a defesa intransigente da mentira.


A verdade é a verdade e defende-se com argumentos lógicos e não com a propaganda.

nao estou a por em causa a sua palavra, mas quando estamos a defender uma teoria convem indicar a fonte. e possivel arranjar algum video com essa reportagem da rt dos separatistas a gabarem-se de terem abatido um an 26?

A indicação da fonte não é especialmente relevante, quando o conteudo é invariavalmente o mesmo, descrito nos mesmos termos e basicamente pelas mesmas pessoas.

O mafarrico não tem feito outra coisa que não seja intoxicar este fórum com propaganda russa, partindo do principio segundo o qual somos todos estúpidos e que as mentiras de meios de comunicação que já deram provas de serem absolutamente corruptos e mentirosos, podem ser tratadas como fontes de informação com um mínimo de credibilidade.

O esterco nojento que o mafarrico nos tem cuspido na cara, diz basicamente sempre o mesmo, e resulta de «fontes» de que ninguém ouviu falar, sites que apareceram nos últimos meses, como esse pseudo-site de investigação de direitos humanos, que estranhamente faz comentários sobre temas militares e politicos, sempre, sempre, sempre, desmascarando os cães americanos e explicando que a Russia afinal tem razão.


Eu pessoalmente tenho a certeza de que os russos mentem, não porque sim, mas porque todos os indicios e o modus operandi de pasquins pornográficos como o RT já o demonstraram de forma inequívoca.

Da mesma forma que, tenho dúvidas, que já exprimi, sobre muito do que dizem os ucranianos.
Afinal a cultura é a mesma e os eslavos têm esta tendência para as teorias da conspiração.

A parte chata da politica do mafarrico, que consiste em bombardear um fórum com fontes pseudo-independentes, que ele acha que devem ser consideradas resulta apenas numa coisa:
Paralisia
Nós não temos tempo para desmascarar e desmontar todo o lixo que o mafarrico nos despeja em cima. Essa é uma das táticas do exército de trolls que é financiado pelo Kremlin e cujo modus operandi está vastamente documentado.
Inventar notícias, e acima de tudo, inventar factos que permitam desmascarar as notícias que são desagradaveis para a Russia fascista.

O facto de estarmos convencidos de que um dos lados mente continuamente, porque as suas mentiras são demonstradas uma atrás da outra, não implica que não sejamos capazes de fazer análises sérias.


Chamar a Russia de estado fascista, por muito que irrite as partes de algumas tias vermelhas da esquerda-Caviar, é absolutamente correto, quando comparamos a Russia de Putin e a Itália de Mussolini.
Uma coisa é chamar alguém de fascista porque não se gosta dele, outra coisa é chamar um regime de fascista, porque todas as suas instituições, modo de operação sistema judicial, executivo e legislativo estão corrompidos pela ideia do estado forte, que a tudo se sobrepõe, como advogava o sistema fascista italiano.

Temos que chamar os bois pelos nomes, se queremos ser honestos.

E é tão desonesto quem publica notícias fabricadas sabendo perfeitamente que são fabricadas, como é desonesto, que se finge de imparcial, porque afinal até tem como referência informação dos dois lados, colocando os dois lados em igualdade de circunstâncias.

A ideia das pessoas que se querem passar por imparciais é: «Vamos ouvir o ladrão que roubou a casa e vamos ouvir o policia que o persegue»
Isto leva a que nos esqueçamos da casa roubada, porque o ladrão tem um ponto de vista que justifica o crime que cometeu.

E é isto que alguns fazem.

Ouvir o ladrão, para assim desculpar e esquecer o crime.

[mafets]

Radomo do radar e parte do lançador coberto com um camuflado. O primeiro é perfeitamente visivel e só o Buk possui

Vejo 2 misseis. Portanto ainda poder-se-ia à primeira vista confundir com um Sa-6. Porem o radome do radar do Buk mais uma vez é visível  e que estão lá dois misseis estão :twisted:  
É verdade que só se vêm as lagartas. Mas comparando as dimensões do veiculo transportado com a foto superior, verifica-se serem as mesmas comparativamente ao reboque e a silhueta que é desde a primeira guerra mundial usada para identificar alvos (um avião ou blindado distante ou com pouca luz a "olho nu" só se distingue a silhueta), é exactamente igual à do Buk (o superior já que o chassi é o correspondente a outros veículos). O camião não tem as rodas tão em baixo e a cobertura "desce" após o sistema de orientação, o que indica não levar misseis. Se os levasse estaria ligeiramente mais alto

https://www.metabunk.org/data/MetaMirrorCache/9f1239ed39b6557e9b5f323b1d8accfd.png
The transporter caught on the dashcam in the video in post 24 (see attached screen grab) has a Russian Military registration plate like this:

Which is distinct from the Ukranian Military registration plate that looks like this:

The registration on the transporter is XP 4682 50. The format is consistent with that used on trailers and the XP 50 elements should indicate the branch of the armed forces to which it belongs:
Foi o primeiro objectivo das fotos até porque com os Buk existem muitas outras e a descoberto. Refiro também que não é a primeira vez que chamo atenção para a "asneirada das matrículas"    

Lançador Buk 321 (assim como o 312), faz parte da separação da 156th que foi colocada em Donesk a partir de 2007 sobre a designação A-1412. A maior parte da 156 th (à quem refira ser outra como já publiquei, mas que estava deslocada no mesmo sitio)  continua baseada em Odessa e a sub secção não se sabe o que lhe aconteceu formalmente

Saudações

[mafarrico]

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140721/1910604 ... Crash.html

Moscow to Back UN Resolution Aimed at Unbiased Boeing Crash Probe in Ukraine

NEW YORK, July 21 (RIA Novosti) – Russia will support the UN Security Council resolution if it calls for unbiased investigation into the crash of Malaysia Airlines jet in eastern Ukraine, Russia’s envoy to the UN Vitaly Churkin said.
"We have been engaged very actively today with the Australian delegation. The Security Council has already pronounced itself in its press statement on the 18th, it said it must be impartial international investigation. That's what we are looking for in the resolution, if this is impartial, international investigation, of course we are going to support it,” Churkin said.
“There are some ambiguities and we need to take care of this ambiguities,” he added.
Churkin confirmed to reporters that Russia has presented its draft resolution to the UN Security Council on the Malaysian plane crash.
Speaking on Australia’s draft on the issue, Churkin said: “The difference is that in our draft it's very clear it is impartial, ICAO led, international investigation."
Russian President Vladimir Putin called Monday for the investigation into the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 plane crash in Ukraine to be carried out under the auspices of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).
The Malaysia Airlines plane en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur crashed on July 17 near the town of Torez in Ukraine’s Donetsk Region, killing 298 people.
Most of the people aboard the flight were Dutch, but there were also victims from many other nations, including Malaysia, Australia, Indonesia, the United Kingdom, Germany, Belgium and Philippines.
Kiev has accused independence supporters of downing the Malaysian airliner. Self-defense militia members insist that they have no required technology to shoot a target flying this high.

[mafarrico]

http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plan ... a-ukraine/

Ukrainian Su-25 fighter detected in close approach to MH17 before crash - Moscow

Published time: July 21, 2014 12:59
Edited time: July 21, 2014 15:16


Image courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

The Russian military detected a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet gaining height towards the MH17 Boeing on the day of the catastrophe. Kiev must explain why the military jet was tracking the passenger airplane, the Russian Defense Ministry said.

Follow Malaysia Airlines MH17 plane crash in Ukraine LIVE UPDATES

“A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, it’s distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km,” said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow on Monday.


LIVE: 'Kiev claims no military aircraft operated over Donetsk on July 17th are false' http://on.rt.com/i78m5v  
2:06 PM - 21 Jul 2014

“[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane,” he stated.

“The SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10km, according to its specification,” he added. “It’s equipped with air-to-air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance up to 12km, up to 5km for sure.”

The presence of the Ukrainian military jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated.

At the moment of the MH17 crash an American satellite was flying over the area of eastern Ukraine, according to Russia’s Defense Ministry. It urged the US to publish the space photos and data captured by it.

‘Ukrainian Buk missile system transported to militia-held area’

In addition, MH17 crashed within the operating zone of the Ukrainian army’s self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air ‘Buk’ missile systems, the Russian general said.

“We have space images of certain places where the Ukraine’s air defense was located in the southeast of the country,” Kartapolov noted.

The first three shots that were shown by the general are dated July 14. The images show Buk missile launch systems in about 8km northwest of the city of Lugansk – a self-propelled vehicle and two launchers, according to the military official.
Another image shows a radar station near Donetsk.


Radar stations of the air defense in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

While the third picture shows the location of the air defense systems near Donetsk, he explained. In particular, one can clearly see the self-propelled system, about 60 units of military and special equipment, he elaborated.


Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

“Images from this area were also made on July 17. One should notice that the missile launcher is absent [from the scene]. Image number five shows the Buk missile system in the morning of the same day in the area of settlement Zaroschinskoe – 50km south of Donetsk and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk," the Kartapolov said


No Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry


Buk missile defense units in Zaroschinskoe, 50km south of Donetsk city and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

The question that has to be answered is why the missile system appeared in the area controlled by the local militia forces shortly before the catastrophe, he stated.

Images taken on July 18 show that the missile systems left the area of the MH17 crash on July 17, the military official said.

Kartapolov also pointed to the fact that on the day of the plane crash Ukraine’s military increased the intensity of the radar stations of the Buk missile systems.

In response to Moscow’s evidence, Kiev said on Monday it had proof the missile that brought down a Malaysian airliner last week came from Russia.

"There is evidence that the missile which struck the plane was fired by terrorists, who received arms and specialists from the Russian Federation," spokesman for Ukraine's Security Council Andrey Lysenko told a news conference. "To disown this tragedy, [Russia] are drawing a lot of pictures and maps. We will explore any photos and other plans produced by the Russian side."

[mafarrico]

[papatango]

Eu devo convessar que normalmente não ligo muito às fotografias.
Lamento mafets, eu sei que você é fã de vástas reportagens fotográficas...  :roll:  

[mafarrico]

http://en.ria.ru/politics/20140721/1910 ... e-for.html

Putin Warns Against Attempts to Use Boeing Crash in Ukraine for Political Goals

NOVO-OGARYOVO (Moscow Region), July 21 (RIA Novosti) – Russian President Vladimir Putin said no one should use the July 17 Boeing crash in Ukraine for their own political goals.
“Speaking about the terrible tragic events that occurred in the sky above Donetsk, I would like to say once again how we in Russia treat these events that today happen in Ukraine. We have repeatedly called on all the conflicting sides to immediately stop bloodshed and sit down at the negotiating table,” Putin told Rossiya 24 TV Channel.
“I can say for sure that if military actions in eastern Ukraine had not resumed on June 28, this tragedy would have not occurred. At the same time, no one should and has the right to use this tragedy to achieve their own political goals. Such events should unite people and not separate,” he said.
The Russian leader said people responsible for the situation in the region need to increase their own responsibility before their own people and people of the countries where the victims of the tragedy come from.
“On its part, Russia is doing everything possible so that the conflict in eastern Ukraine passes from today’s military phase to the phase of discussions at the negotiating table through peaceful and diplomatic means,” the president said.
Putin also called for the investigation into the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 plane crash in Ukraine to be carried out under the auspices of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).
“Everything should be done to ensure the secure work of international experts at the site of tragedy,” Putin said adding that currently representatives of Donbas and Donetsk, as well as Ukraine’s emergencies officials and Malaysian experts are working at the scene.
“It is essential that a full-fledged group of experts under the auspices of ICAO, related international commission work at the site of catastrophe,” Putin said.
“Everything should be done to ensure its full and absolute security, and necessary humanitarian corridors should be provided for its work,” he stressed.
Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) leader Alexander Borodai said Sunday independence supporters discovered objects resembling the flight data recorders which have been taken to Donetsk.
Independence supporters plan to transfer the flight data recorders to experts from the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) and refuse to give them to Kiev fearing that results of the investigation may be falsified.
The Malaysia Airlines plane en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur crashed on July 17 near the town of Torez in Ukraine’s Donetsk Region, killing 298 people.
Most of the people aboard the flight were Dutch, but there were also victims from many other nations, including Malaysia, Australia, Indonesia, the United Kingdom, Germany, Belgium and Philippines.
Kiev has accused independence supporters of downing the Malaysian airliner. Self-defense militia members insist that they have no required technology to shoot a target flying this high.

[mafarrico]

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741664

Video allegedly showing Buk system transfer from Ukraine to Russia fake

World  July 21, 18:20 UTC+4

“I want to stress that Russia did not hand over either Buk systems or other weapons and military hardware to militiamen,” a high-ranking Russian Defense Ministry official says


A still taken from the video
© AP Photo/Ukrainian Interior Ministry


Buk air defense system (archive)   
© ITAR-TASS/Grigory Sysoyev

MOSCOW, July 21. /ITAR-TASS/. Videos allegedly showing the transportation of a Buk air defense system from Ukraine to Russia are a result of manipulation, a high-ranking Russian Defense Ministry official said on Monday.
“This is clear manipulation. The images were taken in the city of Krasnoarmeisk, which is borne out by the roadside billboard giving the address of a car dealer in the city,” Lieutenant-General Andrei Kartapolov, head of the Main Operations Department of the Russian Army General Staff, said at a news conference.
“Krasnoarmeisk has been under the Ukrainian army’s control since May 11,” he added.
“We have several questions to ask in this connection. What kind of a launching system is this? Where was it transported? Where is it now? Why was it loaded with an incomplete set of missiles and when was the last time it fired?” the general said.
“I want to stress that Russia did not hand over either Buk systems or other weapons and military hardware to militiamen,” Kartapolov said.

Satellite imgaes of Ukrainian air defense systems

The Russian Defense Ministry has satellite images showing the position of Ukrainian air defense systems before the crash of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 passenger plane in eastern Ukraine on July 17, Kartapolov noted. “We have satellite images of certain Ukrainian army air defenae systems in the south-east of the country,” he said.
Kartapolov said that the three images were dated July 14. “The first image shows Buk air defense systems stationed 8 km north-west of Luhansk. It clearly shows a self-propelled system and two launching and loading machines,” he added.
Another image shows radar stations near Donetsk. Air defense systems near Donetsk appear on a third image, including a self-propelled firing unit and about 60 pieces of military and special hardware, Kartapolov said.

“Images of the same area were also taken on July 17, but the launching system is absent now. Image No. 5 shows that a Buk system was deployed in the area of Zaroshchinskoye, 50 km east of Donetsk and 8 km south of Shakhtersk, in the morning of the same day,” the general said.
“The question is why the system happened to be near the area controlled by militiamen shortly before the tragedy? Images of the area taken on July 18 show that the system was no longer there,” Kartapolov said.
He also stressed that the intensity of Ukrainian Buk radar stations had increased before July 17.
The Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 passenger plane en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur crashed in the eastern Donetsk region of Ukraine.

[mafarrico]

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741669

Russian Defense Ministry publishes data regarding Malaysian Boeing crash

World  July 21, 18:44 UTC+4
The ministry said it would hand over all materials to European and Malaysian experts

MOSCOW, July 21. /ITAR-TASS/. The Russian Defense Ministry on Monday published some of the data gathered as part of the probe into the July 17 Malaysian Boeing crash in eastern Ukraine.
The ministry said it would hand over all materials to European and Malaysian experts.
Earlier, the Russian Foreign Ministry said it hoped to receive Ukraine’s replies to the Defense Ministry’s questions posed on Saturday, July 19.
“We have satellite images of certain Ukrainian army air defense systems in the south-east of the country,” Lieutenant-General Andrei Kartapolov, head of the Main Operations Department of the Russian Army General Staff, said at a news conference.

Russian monitoring systems recorded up to 4 Ukrainian Buk M1 air defense systems in the crash area on the day of the accident. The point where the plane was at the time of the accident was within the Buk system’s coverage sector.
On the following day after the accident, the intensity of Ukrainian air defense system radar stations increased dramatically, the Defense Ministry said.
It denied Kiev’s assertions that there were no other flights in the crash area on the day of the accident and said that an aerial object had been flying over the crash site for four minutes to monitor the situation.
Also, the time of the Boeing crash coincides with the time when a US satellite was monitoring the territory of Ukraine. The Russian Defense Ministry said an American pilot craft intended for registering missile launches was flying across Ukraine at that time.

A high-ranking Defense Ministry official also said that videos allegedly showing the transportation of a Buk air defense system from Ukraine to Russia were a result of manipulation.
“This is clear manipulation. The images were taken in the city of Krasnoarmeisk, which is borne out by the roadside billboard giving the address of a car dealer in the city,” Kartapolov said.
“Krasnoarmeisk has been under the Ukrainian army’s control since May 11,” he added.

[papatango]

Mafarrico ->

Você tem a noção, de que afirmar que um Su-25 pode perseguir um Boeing 777 e disparar mísseis ar-ar contra o avião é das coisas mais ridiculas que você já aqui colocou ?
E olhe que você já bateu várias vezes o record.

Você tem a noção do ridiculo ?

Para você ter ideia, isto é mais ou menos como você dizer que passou na autoestrada um Ferrari à velocidade máxima e que foi perseguido por um Citroen 2CV durante quilometros para tirar fotografias ao Ferrari.

Quase que estou para lhe perguntar, se você recebe em rublos, ou se os tipos lhe pagam em Euros.    



Veja:
Um F16 pesa 7400kg (vazio) e tem um motor com 10.700kgf.
O Su-25 pesa 9500kg (vazio) é um bimotor e cada motor tem uma potência pouco superior a 4.000kgf

http://www.areamilitar.net/DIRECTORIO/AER.aspx?nn=4
http://www.areamilitar.net/DIRECTORIO/A ... 97&R=FA#A1


Você não pode continuar a despejar este tipo de disparates em cima das pessoas.
Eu sei que vocês chamam a isto «ataque de saturação» despejando tanta mentira em cima das pessoas, que alguma das mentiras acaba por passar.
Mas você está a ultrapassar todos os limites...

[mafets]

Eu devo convessar que normalmente não ligo muito às fotografias.
Lamento mafets, eu sei que você é fã de vástas reportagens fotográficas...  :roll:   ) ?  :roll:


Por norma às perguntas que vou fazendo por agora muito pouca gente me respondeu, nomeadamente ao facto de os EUA aparentemente só se referirem à detecção do missil que abateu o voo da Malasia Airlines, porque será?

Uma família de satélites norte-americanso conhecida como o Sistema Infravermelho Baseado no Espaço, ou SBIRS em inglês, foi provavelmente a chave para determinar que um míssil terra-ar derrubou o Boeing 777 da Malaysia Airlines sobre a Ucrânia na quinta-feira passada. Os satélites permanecem em órbita geoestacionária a 22.300 milhas acima do planeta e usa sensores infravermelhos detectam fontes de calor no solo, tais como rastros de foguetes ou mísseis. Cinco estão em funcionamento permanentemente e eles são complementados por sensores infravermelhos em outros satélites que fazem parte do Programa de Apoio de Defesa, ou DSP em inglês.
http://www.aereo.jor.br/2014/07/18/como-os-eua-souberam-que-o-voo-mh17-foi-abatido/

E sobre os Buk que foram desde 2007 estacionados na área de Donensk

Buk missile system reportedly seen by @AP journalists near E. Ukrainian town.

?


Portanto não é aparentemente só o sr. Putin e os separatistas a terem respostas para dar.



Cumprimentos

[HSMW]

Boeing 777 abatido por um Su-25 ...  
Guardem o texto antes que seja eliminado.
Algo assim merece ser referencia histórica como um dos mais básicos exemplos de guerra de informação ao estilo soviético.