[Mar Verde]

Tailândia compra Tavor

It is the second major arms procurement approved by the cabinet recently. On Sept 25 it endorsed the Defence Ministry's 7.7-billion-baht plan to buy 96 armoured personnel carriers (APCs) from Ukraine and 15,000 TAR-21 assault rifles from Israel for the army, C-802 surface-to-surface missiles and launch systems for the navy from China, and new avionics for the six C-130H aircraft operated by the air force.

15,000 Tavor and 922 Negev. This will replace M16A1/A2 as a main rifle. The total requirement, according to the plan, is 100,000 unit.

Tavor competed with M4A1, G36, and SAR-21.

[Lancero]

Já se sabia que a Guatemala também as tem?

[typhonman]

Sem duvida uma boa opção.

[Luso]

http://www.defensetech.org/

M4 Comes in Last Place in Dust Test

Well, the results are in...and it doesn't look good for the M4 carbine.

You'll remember that Defense Tech and Military.com were on top of the story of worries over the M4's reliability in the dusty conditions found in Iraq and Afghanistan. Oklahoma Senator Tom Coburn insisted the Army conduct side-by-side testing between the M4, SCAR, 416 and XM8 in an "extreme" dust environment.

Well, the tests are complete and it seems the M4 came in dead last against its competitors. And, guess what...the Army's not budging. The M4 is still the best.

I'll have the full story posted tomorrow morning at Military.com, but here's a preview: Ten of each weapon; 6,000 rounds per weapon; 120 rounds fired per "dust cycle" (and when they say dust, they mean DUST...testers had to wear respirators and Tyvec suits); wiped and light lube every 600 rounds, fully cleaned and lubed every 1,200 rounds.

XM8: 127 Class I, II and III stoppages.
Mk16 (5.56 SCAR): 226 Class I, II and III stoppages.
HK 416: 233 Class I, II, and III stoppages.
M4: 882 Class I, II and III stoppages.

Army top gear buyer, Brig. Gen. Mark Brown: "The M4 carbine is a world-class weapon. Soldiers "have high confidence in that weapon, and that high confidence level is justified, in our view, as a result of all test data and all investigations we have made."

An "in the know" congressional staffer: "These results are stunning, and frankly they are significantly more dramatic than most weapons experts expected. It's time to stop making excuses and just conduct a competition for a new weapon."

Be sure to check out the full story tomorrow morning at Military.com.

-- Christian

December 17, 2007 03:43 PM

Seria bom terem sido testadas outras armas. Em todo o caso o teste é muito interessante e merecerá certamente a consideração de quem de direito. Se tiverem sido efectuados de maneira isenta, o que nem sempre ocorre.

[hellraiser]

http://www.defensetech.org/

M4 Comes in Last Place in Dust Test

Well, the results are in...and it doesn't look good for the M4 carbine.

You'll remember that Defense Tech and Military.com were on top of the story of worries over the M4's reliability in the dusty conditions found in Iraq and Afghanistan. Oklahoma Senator Tom Coburn insisted the Army conduct side-by-side testing between the M4, SCAR, 416 and XM8 in an "extreme" dust environment.

Well, the tests are complete and it seems the M4 came in dead last against its competitors. And, guess what...the Army's not budging. The M4 is still the best.

I'll have the full story posted tomorrow morning at Military.com, but here's a preview: Ten of each weapon; 6,000 rounds per weapon; 120 rounds fired per "dust cycle" (and when they say dust, they mean DUST...testers had to wear respirators and Tyvec suits); wiped and light lube every 600 rounds, fully cleaned and lubed every 1,200 rounds.

XM8: 127 Class I, II and III stoppages.
Mk16 (5.56 SCAR): 226 Class I, II and III stoppages.
HK 416: 233 Class I, II, and III stoppages.
M4: 882 Class I, II and III stoppages.

Army top gear buyer, Brig. Gen. Mark Brown: "The M4 carbine is a world-class weapon. Soldiers "have high confidence in that weapon, and that high confidence level is justified, in our view, as a result of all test data and all investigations we have made."

An "in the know" congressional staffer: "These results are stunning, and frankly they are significantly more dramatic than most weapons experts expected. It's time to stop making excuses and just conduct a competition for a new weapon."

Be sure to check out the full story tomorrow morning at Military.com.

-- Christian

December 17, 2007 03:43 PM

Seria bom terem sido testadas outras armas. Em todo o caso o teste é muito interessante e merecerá certamente a consideração de quem de direito. Se tiverem sido efectuados de maneira isenta, o que nem sempre ocorre.

A confirmar-se, so mostra, a superior qualidade e fiabilidade da G36/XM8 face à concorrente SCAR. Algo que há muito defendo... algo que alguns "especialistas" tentavam negar mas que é óbvio ao observar-se a mecânica dos dois sistemas....

[Luso]

A confirmar-se, so mostra, a superior qualidade e fiabilidade da G36/XM8 face à concorrente SCAR. Algo que há muito defendo... algo que alguns "especialistas" tentavam negar mas que é óbvio ao observar-se a mecânica dos dois sistemas....

A fiabilidade é de facto um dos factores mais importantes, senão o mais importante. Mas não é certamente o único.

[hellraiser]

A confirmar-se, so mostra, a superior qualidade e fiabilidade da G36/XM8 face à concorrente SCAR. Algo que há muito defendo... algo que alguns "especialistas" tentavam negar mas que é óbvio ao observar-se a mecânica dos dois sistemas....

A fiabilidade é de facto um dos factores mais importantes, senão o mais importante. Mas não é certamente o único.

[Luso]

Lol, não se preocupe porque não me estava a referir a si. Se bem que ja reparei que prefere a SCAR à G36/XM8.  

Safa! Não queria nada que se aborrecesse comigo!
E de facto é verdade: continuo a preferir a SCAR às outras (pelos motivos que já enunciei no passado). E mesmo sabendo que tanto a SCAR e a XM8 foram feitas de maneira quase artesanal, enquanto os exemplares M4 são de série.
Em todo caso parece haver algo a ser desenvolvido na sobra que pode ser superior a todas estas propostas. Mas será que deveremos esperar por elas? Creio que não. Mas leiam...


http://www.defensereview.com/modules.ph ... e&sid=1077

Colt M4 Carbine Finishes Last in Latest U.S. Army Small Arms Reliability Test
Posted on Tuesday, December 18 @ 02:26:35 PST by davidc  
 

 by David Crane
defrev at gmail.com

December 17, 2007

Ya' know that Colt M4 Carbine vs. Heckler & Koch (HK) HK416 vs. FN MK16 SCAR-Light (SCAR-L) vs. HK XM8 LAR extreme dust conditions reliability test that the U.S. Army Test and Evaluation Center (ATEC) at Aberdeen Proving Ground (APG), Md. was conducting? No? Well, we’ll tell ya’. The U.S. Army just got done conducting a test on all four weapons, and the results are in. Before we go through them, we’ll cut right to the chase: The Colt M4 Carbine came in dead last, with 882 stoppages over 60,000 rounds between ten (10) guns. Not great. But, more on that in a minute.

First, the purpose of this test was to expose the weapons to the same extreme dust and sand conditions/environment to which both the Colt M4/M4A1 Carbine and FN M16 rifle were exposed by U.S. Army weapons testers during a “systems assessment” test at Aberdeen last year and in the summer of this year. Here’s how the four 5.56x45mm NATO (5.56mm NATO)/.223 Rem. infantry rifle / carbines were tested:...



The ATEC team tested ten (10) sample guns of each weapon system (make/model), so 40 guns total were tested. Each (individual) gun/weapon got a heavy dose of lubricant, the muzzle was capped, and the ejection port cover was closed. Then, each weapon was exposed to heavy dust environment (i.e. a dust chamber) for 30 minutes. Then a tester fired 120 rounds through each weapon. Then, back in the dust chamber they went for another 30 minutes of dust bathing, before having to fire another 120 rounds. This process/sequence was repeated until each weapon had fired 600 rounds. Then, all the weapons were wiped down and lubed up again (heavy lubrication), and put back in the dust bath (dust chamber) for 30 minutes, 120 rounds fired through it, up to 600 rounds again.
You get the picture. Well this kept goin’ until each gun (i.e. individual rifle/carbine) had 6,000 rounds through it. 10 guns (individual weapon type) x 6,000 rounds = 60,000 rounds through each weapon type. And, here’s how the test fleshed out, best to worst (most reliable to least reliable):

XM8: 127 stoppages/malfunctions

Mk16 SCAR-L: 226 stoppages/malfunctions

HK416: 233 stoppages/malfunctions

M4 Carbine: 882 stoppages/malfunctions

What’s curious about the M4 Carbine's performance in this test is the fact that the ten (10) M4 Carbines that were tested to 60,000 (again, 6,000 rounds a piece) during the summer only experienced 307 malfunctions/stoppages, 643 of which were weapon-related malfunctions, and 239 of which were magazine-related malfunctions. According to Brig. Gen. Mark Brown of U.S. Army Program Executive Office Soldier (PEO Soldier), “test conditions for test two [summer] and three [latest] were ostensibly the same.” So, what was different? Different test officials, and different time of year. That’s pretty much it.

So, what’s the Army planning to do? Well, they sure aren’t planning to ditch the M4 for any one of its three conquerors. According to Col. Robert Radcliffe, Director, Combats, U.S. Army Infantry Center, Ft. Benning, GA, the Army’s going to stick with the M4 Carbine because soldier surveys from the Sandbox (i.e. Iraq and Afghanistan) show that U.S. Army combat troops like the weapon (compared to the M16). And, according to Brig. Gen. Brown, the Army’s looking for “leap ahead” / next-generation (a.k.a. next-gen) infantry small arms technology for a replacement weapon, not just minor, incremental improvements/capabilities like the HK 416, FN MK16 SCAR-Light, and HK XM8.

So, you want some (unconfirmed/unverified) inside skinny i.e. rumor on the latest test, something you most likely won’t find anywhere else, even when everyone else starts reporting about this test? Here ya’ go, direct from one of our U.S. military contacts—and we're quoting:

"1. Because the HK416 and M4 were the only production weapons, the ten HK416 and M4 carbines were all borrowed 'sight unseen' and the manufacturers had no idea that they were for a test. The 10 SCARs and 10 XM-8s were all 'handmade' and delivered to Aberdeen with pretty much full knowledge of a test. (The SCAR even got some addition help with 'extra' lubrication)

2. With the HK416, 117 of the 233 malfunctions were from just one of the 10 weapons.

3. The 'survey' that BG Brown and COL Radcliffe are referring to in the article where they cite that the 'M4 is very popular amongst the soldiers deployed forward in combat,' was based on the soldiers just getting their M16s replaced by M4s. They were asked if they liked it [compared to the M16] and of course the answer is going to be yes. It is lighter and smaller with all these cool optics and lasers on them. Not to mention that average soldiers have no frame of reference when it comes to small arms, they're not really weapons experts."

But that’s not all. The real inside skinny is that proposals and design concepts for true “leap-ahead”/next-gen infantry small arms were submitted to the Joint Services Small Arms Program (JSSAP)-ARDEC / Picatinny Arsenal back in 2001 and 2002 by Arm West, LLC, which is headed up by lengendary small arms engineer/designer/developer Jim Sullivan (a.k.a. L. James Sullivan). I have personal knowledge of this, and I was personally involved in Arm West’s proposal for Broad Agency Announcement (BAA) 0400 for “Component Technologies” for the Lightweight Family of Weapons and Ammunition (LFWA) program in late 2002. I won’t talk about the specifics of the various compenent technologies that were submitted by Arm West. However, they were all viable, i.e. easily accomplishable by the Arm West team (Sullivan and his design/development partner), and most likely far superior to anything any of the competing large small arms manufacturers and defense companies could have possibly come up with and submitted, since none of them (FN Herstal (FNH), Heckler & Koch, Colt Defense, LLC, AAI Corp., ATK, GDATP, etc.) have small arms designers/engineers that can touch Sullivan and/or his partner with regard to skill, knowledge, experience, inventiveness, and downright genius. How do I know this? I just know. Am I biased towards Arm West? Yeah, ‘cause I know they’re, hands down, the best in the world.

But Arm West isn’t a large “established” small arms/firearms company, and they’re not in the system, i.e. one of the U.S. Army’s preferred contractors/suppliers, and they're not a small arm manufacturer. They're a small infantry small arms design and development firm. So, they get no play, i.e. no funding, even though they have the best small arms design concepts and the most capability of turning those designs into reality, i.e. working prototypes, in the shortest possible amount of time.

Yeah, the U.S. Army is interested in "leap ahead" small arms technology for Big Green / Big Army, provided it comes from one of the inside companies / preferred contractors like FNH USA, Heckler & Koch, AAI Corp., Alliant Techsystems (ATK) etc. If it comes from a small, outside company like Arm West, well, good luck. That's just how it is. Messed up as it is, that's the U.S. military infantry small arms acquisition/procurement system for ya', folks. It is cabal-like/closed-group, it is fascistic, and it is unforgiving--so you might as well get used to it. No one's successfully fought this broken small arms procurement/adoption system since Picatinny Arsenal and JSSAP were established. The U.S. Army Infantry Board at Fort Benning isn't innocent, either, and they're certainly not helping the situation.

Bottom line, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. It would take drastic measures to fix the system like it needs to be fixed, and neither the President nor Congress seems to want to fix it, nor do they seem to understand just how broken and corrupt it is. And the wheels keep turnin'.


Sound slightly similar to the U.S. Army body armor acquisition/procurement situation, perhaps?

Getting back to the recent small arms test and the competing weapons, rumor has it that Heckler & Koch (HK) will be manufacturing the HK 416 5.56mm carbine/subcarbine/SBR (Short-Barreled Rifle)--and possibly also the HK417 (a.k.a. HK 417) 7.62mm carbine/subcarbine/SBR--domestically in the U.S., soon (unconfirmed/unverified). We’ll try to get confirmation on this. That’s good news, but it doesn’t look like that’s really going to matter to Big Army. Guess we’ll see. Regardless, elements (i.e. specific units) of the various Armed Forces, including the Army, will most likely continue to procure the HK416 in small numbers.

Editor's Note: If any of our readers have any more inside knowledge of any of the small arms testing that's been conducted by the Army, or previous small arms solicitations and procurement programs, we'd be interested in hearing from you. Please contact us at defrev at gmail.com. Thanks.

[Tiago20]

Boas Noites,

Alguma novidade em relação a este concurso?

Abraços  

[Lancero]

The Turkish Minister of Defence H.E. Vecdi Gonul, has unveiled yesterday Turkey's choice of new rifle to replace the G3:

The Mehmetçik-1 designed and manufactured by MKEK of Turkey is similar in design to the Hk-416, but with added features such as laser target illumination and the use of a different metal, inter alia.

It has also been anounced that Turkey has become the 5'th nation in the world to have attained the ability to design and manufacture Modern Tank Turrets. Minister Gonul officially inaugurated the manufacturing plant yesterday for this sole purpose.

Fonte

01.15.2008:  TURKEY HAS ADOPTED THE HK416 AND AG416 AS NEW SERVICE RIFLE, REPLACING AGING G3.  QUANTITIES NOT REVEALED AS OF YET.  SIGNIFICANT PURCHASE FOR HK.  NO WORD EITHER ON WHETHER TURKISH PRODUCTION FACILITY TO BE SET UP OR IF ENTIRE ORDER FULFILLED FROM OBERNDORF

http://www.hkpro.com/

[Aim]

Eu não sendo perito em relação a armas, pergunto aos entendidos da situação se deveríamos seguir o mesmo exemplo dos turcos e adoptar aquela arma também  

[alphaiate]

não consigo deixar de a preferir em relação à g36!

deixo aos carissimos utilizadores do forum a questão que me surge:

seria possivel montar uma linha de montagem em portugal? para as várias versões desta arma?
seria viavel?

[Eurico Viegas]

Eu não sendo perito em relação a armas, pergunto aos entendidos da situação se deveríamos seguir o mesmo exemplo dos turcos e adoptar aquela arma também  

A HK 416 para todos os efeitos practicos é uma G36 que apenas parece uma M4. Mecanicamente, é mesmo uma G36.

Agora, para quem não quiser largar o 7.62 NATO... Há a HK 417

[Garcia]

Segundo o que eu consegui perceber do funcionamento da H&K416 uma vantagem é que o cano ao fazer sucessivos disparos continua razoavelmente frio, evitando assim alguns problemas no disparo e que algumas peças se desgastem muito rapidamente. A 416 funciona através de gaz directo ao contrario da G36 e m4 que faz com que o tiro seje mais preciso ( julgo eu). a arma em questao é feita com carbono que torna a arma mais leve e resistente e funciona bem em ambientes com lama, areias, e água. a 416 é uma arma com base na M16 e M4 que foi alterada de forma a resolver alguns problemas. é uma carabina que será utilizada pelas forças especiais dos EU.


(se por acaso disse barbaridades ou expliquei mal, peço desde já imensa desculpa e que me corrijam, estou aqui para aprender).  

[Eurico Viegas]

não consigo deixar de a preferir em relação à g36!

deixo aos carissimos utilizadores do forum a questão que me surge:

seria possivel montar uma linha de montagem em portugal? para as várias versões desta arma?
seria viavel?

Bem, como vimos, a Turquia vai produzir, e creio que as 416/417 da Noruega tambem serão produzidas localmente.

Agora, se vale a pena fazer o mesmo aqui... Depende de quantidades a serem compradas, acho eu. Até porque em caso de produção tenho muitas duvidas que a HK deixe-nos vender a quem quer que seja... O concurso da arma ligeira é para quantas mesmo?