[tenente]

Segundo o Defence 360º, o Exército PT pretende adquirir 200 Boxer entre 2036 e 2045, na 3ªfase do projecto "PT 2045". Então vão se 70+70+200? Se cada Bt tem 70 na orgânica, isso dá 4 a 5  Bt no total. 1 na Brigada ligeira e 3 na Brigada média?

São patranhas atrás de patranhas, com que então agora escolhem -se os equipamentos do exército para daqui a dez ou mais anos, para serem adquiridos a 20 anos, muito bom, grandes especialistas iluminados!!

Só os 200 boxer, a preços de 2025, ficariam em bem mais que 2.500 milhões, quem acredita nessa aquisição é mesmo muito ingénuo, ou muito trouxa !!!

Cumprimentos

[dc]

Esses supostos 70+70+200 acabam por coincidir com as quantidades necessárias para substituir os M-113 (primeiros 140) e os Pandur (restantes 200).


Só por curiosidade, esses "70 por batalhão" incluem que variantes? É que se for só para CAts e ERec (tudo corrido a APCs e/ou IFVs presumo), o segundo batch de 70 terá que incluir a totalidade das restantes variantes - VSHORAD, PC, PM, Ambulância, etc.

O mesmo se sucederá num suposto "batch 3" de 200 viaturas, que supostamente iriam para a BrigInt, depreendendo que o objectivo seria substituir a totalidade da frota Pandur.

A minha "aposta", é que o plano passa por 3 BIMecs Boxer. E depois ter as diversas variantes de apoio em quantidades suficientes para apoiar estes batalhões.

[HSMW]

Já não devemos ter grande quantidade para modernizar, mas fica aqui o projeto da Rafael.

[PTWolf]

Já não devemos ter grande quantidade para modernizar, mas fica aqui o projeto da Rafael.

Na minha opinião este tipo de plataformas num teatro recheado de drones já só faz sentido modernizar e usa-los enquanto drones terrestes

[mafets]

Como faz Israel.

https://www.armyrecognition.com/archives/archives-land-defense/land-defense-2024/did-the-israeli-defense-forces-send-remote-controlled-m113-zelda-apcs-to-rafah

According to information from the Twitter account Gaza War Unit Tracker on May 27, 2024, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) could have deployed unmanned M113 "Zelda" armored personnel carriers (APCs) in Rafah. Noting their reported presence on Zaruub Hill, these remotely controlled vehicles are said to be equipped with remote-controlled weapons and can carry up to four tons of payload. This information may be plausible, given the IDF's previous known use and development of unmanned vehicles.

Saudações

[Charlie Jaguar]

Bom dia,
Acho que existe alguma confusão.
O que estava planeado era os Boxer substituirem os Pandur lá para 2040-2045.
Quando ao IFV, o que estava quase certo eram os Bradleys, usados, até pelo montante que consta na LPM...
Aguardar mais um tempo...
Cps

Parece que a opção pelos Bradley voltou a ganhar força.

[dc]

Como faz Israel.

https://www.armyrecognition.com/archives/archives-land-defense/land-defense-2024/did-the-israeli-defense-forces-send-remote-controlled-m113-zelda-apcs-to-rafah

According to information from the Twitter account Gaza War Unit Tracker on May 27, 2024, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) could have deployed unmanned M113 "Zelda" armored personnel carriers (APCs) in Rafah. Noting their reported presence on Zaruub Hill, these remotely controlled vehicles are said to be equipped with remote-controlled weapons and can carry up to four tons of payload. This information may be plausible, given the IDF's previous known use and development of unmanned vehicles.

Saudações

O EP já tinha demonstrado essa intenção há relativamente pouco tempo, de converter os M-113 en UGVs.

Não sei se entretanto houve algum desenvolvimento a este nível.

Desconfio que no nosso caso o desafio seja ter um número significativo de M-113 funcionais para essa conversão.

[nelson38899]

[Cabeça de Martelo]

[nelson38899]

[Duarte]

Com apenas €13.6 M não vamos longe...

High-level assumptions
Vehicles are refurbished-to-serviceable standard (not museum/demo hulls). That includes functional powerpack, weapons/sighting baseline, comms fit, basic repairs and test, and a minimal initial spares kit.

A pooled support package is included from the total budget (not a full logistics regiment): 1 tracked recovery vehicle, a light mobile workshop, transportation to Portugal, and an initial spares/special-tools kit. I budget this pooled support at €1.0–1.8M depending on whether recovery/workshop come from used sources or newly refurbished items.

Prices vary with negotiation, batch size, export politics, and whether the seller includes spares/training — ranges below are realistic midpoints based on recent sales/contract notices.

Market anchors (sources)

Marder: recent Rheinmetall orders & government-funded refurb deliveries for batches indicate mid-single-million per vehicle once overhauls and basic modernization are included; German-funded batches described as “mid double-digit million euro” for ~20 vehicles support ~€1.0–€1.5M per refurbished hull.
Defence Industry Europe


Independent sources/aggregators note a refurbished Marder commonly quoted ~€0.89M–€1.5M depending on standard.
Global Security

Bradley: recent DSCA packages for Bradley refurbishment/overhaul are very large (e.g., an estimated $150M package for a program), which implies several million dollars per vehicle when overhaul, sustainment and MRO capability are included. That pushes Bradleys to a much higher per-vehicle all-in cost than Marders for small purchasers.
Defense Security Cooperation Agency



Budget math — two realistic procurement models

I subtract a pooled support budget first, then divide the rest for vehicles. I give a conservative and optimistic scenario for each type.

A. Marder (refurbished, operational)

Pooled support set-aside: €1.2M (used recovery vehicle + small workshop + transport & initial spares).

Remaining for vehicles: €13.6M − €1.2M = €12.4M.

Per-vehicle all-in assumptions (refurbished serviceable):

Optimistic per-unit: €0.95M → ≈ 13 vehicles (12.9 → round 13).

Conservative per-unit: €1.25M → ≈ 9 vehicles (9.9 → round 9).

So: ~9–13 operational Marders (with one recovery/workshop & initial spares included).
Defence Industry Europe


B. Bradley (refurbished, operational)

Pooled support set-aside: €1.5M (US-origin recovery/workshop & initial spares — US-origin support tends to be pricier/logistics heavier).

Remaining for vehicles: €12.1M.

Per-vehicle all-in assumptions (refurbished + sustainment entry-level):

Optimistic per-unit: €2.5M → ≈ 4 vehicles (4.8 → round 4).

Conservative per-unit: €3.5M → ≈ 3 vehicles (3.4 → round 3).

So: ~3–4 operational Bradleys (including a minimal pooled support element).
Defense Security Cooperation Agency


Side-by-side summary
Type   Pooled support set-aside   Money for vehicles   Per-vehicle (optimistic → conservative)   Vehicles possible
Marder (refurbished operational)   €1.2M   €12.4M   €0.95M → €1.25M   13 → 9 vehicles.
Defence Industry Europe


Bradley (refurbished operational)   €1.5M   €12.1M   €2.5M → €3.5M   4 → 3 vehicles.
Defense Security Cooperation Agency

Practical notes / caveats

Availability & politics — Germany has been actively refurbishing and donating Marders and can bundle spares/training; the German route is usually favourable for European buyers. That lowers effective cost and improves logistics.
Defence Industry Europe

Scale effects — per-vehicle cost tends to fall if you buy a larger batch or accept slightly lower refurbishment scope. Conversely, buying a tiny handful (especially Bradleys) often attracts a premium per vehicle because overhaul & sustainment fixed costs are spread over fewer hulls.
Defense Media

Hidden costs — integration with Portuguese C2, ammunition, ordnance compatibility, crew training beyond initial days, depot-level spares beyond the initial kit, and long-term sustainment contracts are not fully covered by these numbers and can be material. Expect follow-on sustainment budget needs.

Recovery & workshop choice matters — a single tracked ARV is essential for an operational fleet; used ARVs or shared regional NATO support can save money. Commercial listings show some used tracked recovery assets available cheaply if sourced from ex-military dealers, but transport and rebuild add cost.

[Duarte]

Why Marder is the likeliest choice

Budget fits a company-sized purchase.
Refurbished Marder 1A3/1A5 hulls (with minimal overhaul and initial spares) sit in the mid-single-million-euro band, meaning €13.6M can realistically buy ~10–13 operational Marders plus a small pooled support package, whereas Bradleys would only buy a very small pilot (≈3–4) for the same money. (Your own company-sized target of 10+ therefore points toward Marder.)
Rheinmetall


Supply and European industrial route is easier/politically simpler.
Germany/Rheinmetall are actively refurbishing and supplying Marders (including state-financed deliveries to Ukraine), which creates a visible commercial pathway for European buyers and easier logistics/engineering support inside the EU. US Bradley transfers tend to be tied up in larger DSCA/FMS packages and political approvals and have recently been focused on large packages to Ukraine — that makes small bilateral buys more complex and often pricier per hull.
Rheinmetall


Faster to field and sustain.
A Marder company can be made operational more quickly: shorter delivery/overhaul timelines from Rheinmetall/ex-Bundeswehr stock, simpler spares/maintenance supply chains inside Europe, and lower training/logistics overhead compared with bringing in US Bradleys and their specific MRO/supply chains. Recent deliveries and refurbishment contracts for Marders show Rheinmetall can turn units into serviceable condition at scale.
Army Recognition


Political/operational fit for Portugal.
Portugal already operates significant wheeled armour (Pandur II) and works with EU partners; picking a European IFV simplifies interoperability with regional maintenance and training partners and reduces dependency on trans-Atlantic FMS timing and conditions. (Pandur background / Portuguese fleet context.)
Wikipedia

What could still make Bradley chosen?

If Portugal values close U.S. interoperability, access to US logistics/sensor package, or a long-term plan to align with US ground systems and can secure extra budget or US co-funding, Bradley remains an option — but not for a 10+ company within €13.6M. Recent Bradley sales/overhaul packages have been large, high-value programs (e.g., DSCA notifications and Ukraine refurb programs).
Defense Security Cooperation Agency


Short recommendation

If the political and operational goal is to field a company (≈10+ operational IFVs) quickly and affordably on €13.6M, pursue Marder 1A3/1A5 refurbished ex-German stock (or Rheinmetall-refurbished vehicles) and negotiate inclusion of a minimal support kit (1 ARV, spares, short training package) in the deal.

[Duarte]

a IA substituirá muito tacho no futuro 

🇩🇪 1. Negotiation Checklist / Talking Points for a Portuguese Marder Procurement

A structured set of items Portugal’s Defence Ministry (DGRDN / EMGFA / Army Material Directorate) could raise with Germany or Rheinmetall.
Objective: Secure 10–13 refurbished Marder 1A3/1A5 IFVs as an operational company for €13.6M (± small flexibility).

🧾 A. Political and Industrial Framing

Goal: Frame this as a European capability-strengthening move, not just a commercial buy.

Topic   Rationale / Talking Point
European defence cooperation   Stress alignment with EU strategic autonomy and PESCO framework; Marder is EU-origin, spares and depot work stay inside the EU.
Interim mechanised capability   Present it as a bridging capability until Portugal joins a future European IFV programme (e.g. KF41 Lynx, ASCOD upgrades, MGCS spin-offs).
Training & maintenance cooperation   Suggest joint technician courses or depot-level work in Germany (Bundeswehr schools / Rheinmetall Unterlüß) for Portuguese mechanics.
Cost-efficiency   Emphasize the limited budget and desire to recycle European surplus, demonstrating smart spending.
Delivery speed   Ask for quick turnaround from existing Bundeswehr stocks (many Marders are stored).
⚙️ B. Technical / Contractual Points
Topic   Desired Outcome
Variant   Marder 1A3 preferred (simpler electronics, robust, proven); 1A5 acceptable if similar cost.
Refurbishment standard   Fully operational hulls with overhauled engines, running gear, turret function test, and new radios (interoperable with NATO Band III).
Armament   Retain the 20 mm Rh-202 autocannon and coax 7.62 mm MG. Ask about optional Milan/TOW rails but not mandatory.
Spare parts pack   Request inclusion of at least 10 % of spares package by value (filters, tracks, gearboxes, electronics, gun barrels).
Support vehicles   Include one BPz 2 “Standard” or Bergepanzer M88 (if available) recovery vehicle; if not, one Marder hull converted to recovery/training.
Workshop & tools   1 mobile workshop truck with tools/test benches for first-line maintenance.
Training package   Two 4-week courses: one for drivers/crews (approx. 20 soldiers) and one for maintainers (approx. 10 technicians).
Documentation   Request all technical manuals and digital maintenance documentation (in English).
Transport & delivery   Request Germany or Rheinmetall to arrange land transport to a Portuguese port or training base (e.g., Santa Margarida).
Option clause   Reserve right to purchase up to 10 additional hulls within 24 months at same or lower unit cost (for attrition/spares).
💰 C. Commercial / Financial Points
Item   Negotiation Angle
Price target   Keep the per-vehicle refurb cost near €0.9–1.1 M; insist total (vehicles + support + training + delivery) ≤ €13.6 M.
Bundled support   Request inclusion of ARV and workshop truck in overall price, not separately charged.
Payment terms   Split 30 % on contract signature, 70 % on acceptance test.
Offset / industrial participation   Offer Portuguese depots (Manut/OGME) for future workshare in component overhaul.
🇵🇹 2. Costed Package: “Marder Company” (Operational, 10–13 vehicles)
Category   Description   Qty   Unit Cost (€ M)   Subtotal (€ M)   Notes
Refurbished Marder 1A3/1A5   Fully operational, overhauled powerpack, tested turret/weapons, NATO-comms-ready   12   0.95   11.40   Baseline platoons + HQ
Training/Spare Hull (Reserve)   Optional 13th vehicle for training or spare parts donor   1   0.75   0.75   Depending on availability
Tracked Recovery Vehicle (BPz 2 or converted Marder)   For recovery/maintenance   1   0.80   0.80   Can substitute with converted hull
Workshop Truck (mobile maintenance)   Tools, test gear, small spare stock   1   0.45   0.45   Civilian chassis adapted
Initial Spares Kit   Filters, track links, optics spares, oils, consumables   —   —   0.40   Roughly 3–5 % of fleet value
Crew & Maintainer Training   Two courses in Germany (or Portugal w/ instructors)   —   —   0.20   Travel + instructors + ammo
Transport & Acceptance   Land/sea shipment, customs, testing   —   —   0.20   Estimate Germany → Portugal
Contingency Reserve (~2 %)   For unexpected overhaul parts   —   —   0.20   

Total Estimated Cost: ≈ €13.6 M

📈 Resulting Capability
Metric   Value
Operational vehicles   12 (+ 1 reserve)
Crew seats (3 × 13)   39
Dismount seats (6 × 13)   78
Total combat personnel   ~117 + HQ/support (~160 overall)
Combat strength   One full mechanised company
Support vehicles   1 ARV + 1 workshop truck + 1 spares kit
Training throughput   ~20 drivers/gunners + 10 technicians/year
Expected readiness (Yr 1)   80 %+ operational if spares flow stable
📊 Summary
Factor   Marder   Bradley
Fits €13.6 M for 10 + vehicles   ✅ Yes   ❌ No (3–4 vehicles)
EU procurement simplicity   ✅ High   ⚠️ Complex FMS
Delivery speed (stock available)   ✅ Fast (Bundeswehr surplus)   ⚠️ Slow
Sustainment cost   ✅ Lower   ⚠️ Higher
Interoperability w/ U.S. systems   ⚠️ Moderate   ✅ High
Training/logistics path   ✅ EU-based   ⚠️ U.S.-based

Bottom line:

Portugal’s most realistic and cost-effective path is a Marder 1A3/1A5 company (≈12 + 1 vehicles) refurbished under German/Rheinmetall supervision, bundled with a recovery vehicle, workshop, initial spares and training — all within the €13.6 M envelope.

Would you like me to follow up with a 12-month readiness & sustainment plan (availability, spare consumption, training cycle, estimated annual running cost)?

[dc]

Os 13.6M é o valor do quê ao certo?

[Duarte]

Os 13.6M é o valor do quê ao certo?

É o que está inscrito na LPM para as VCI-L...

Os Bradley são uma VCI superior ao Marder e seriam um melhor escolha a longo prazo, com mais potencial de modernização também. O Marder, apesar de ser uma viatura com provas dadas  está já no fim de vida.  De qualquer forma tanto um como o outro é um viatura muito superior aos M-113.. Esperemos que com a revisão da LPM e um influxo de dinheiro se faça uma escolha mais sensata?

Dispensar VCI-L e comprar mais Pandur não seria uma má ideia na minha opinião.