ForumDefesa.com

Forças Armadas e Sistemas de Armas => Exércitos/Sistemas de Armas => Tópico iniciado por: Mark_Ellis em Fevereiro 20, 2026, 10:31:09 pm

Título: Alvis Saracen e Stalwart adquiridos por Portugal (purchased by Portugal)
Enviado por: Mark_Ellis em Fevereiro 20, 2026, 10:31:09 pm
Olá,
Desculpem a tradução do Google.

Há 6 anos que ando a pesquisar a história e o desenvolvimento do camião anfíbio Alvis Stalwart 6x6.

Encontrei um documento do governo britânico de 1969. Nele, a Alvis Ltd. pergunta ao governo do Reino Unido se haveria algum problema em vender Saracens e Stalwarts a Portugal.

O Ministério dos Negócios Estrangeiros e da Commonwealth aprovou a venda.

Gostaria de saber se alguém tem conhecimento de Portugal ter comprado estes veículos por volta de 1970/1971. E, em caso afirmativo, quantos?

Hello,
Sorry for the Google translation.
I have been researching the history and development of the Alvis Stalwart 6x6 amphibious truck for 6 years now.
I have found a British Government document from 1969. In it, Alvis Ltd ask the UK Government if there will be any issue with selling Saracens and Stalwarts to Portugal.
The Foreign and Commonwealth Office approves the sale.

I wonder if anyone knows of Portugal buying such vehicles around 1970/1971. And if so, then how many.
Título: Re: Alvis Saracen e Stalwart adquiridos por Portugal (purchased by Portugal)
Enviado por: Duarte em Fevereiro 20, 2026, 10:41:25 pm
As far as I know no such vehicles were ever purchased by Portugal. It is not surprising that during this time frame (colonial war) Portugal was seeking such vehicles, however I am quite surprised there was a UK government approval for such a sale. Are you sure of this? I would investigate that part further...

The only Alvis vehicles that I am aware of in Portuguese service  were the Saladin scout cars, which came to Portugal in the early 1980s as NATO military aid from the UK.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0e/b9/03/0eb9030f6f447ac6d40aa37f661a2522.png)
Título: Re: Alvis Saracen e Stalwart adquiridos por Portugal (purchased by Portugal)
Enviado por: Mark_Ellis em Fevereiro 20, 2026, 11:57:54 pm
I have this document bundle, which confirms that there was approval to sell them to Portugal - but not that they were actually sold to Portugal
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6149631 (https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6149631)

My Alvis records suggest that no Stalwart was actually sold to Portugal. But I have learnt with the Stalwart to never say never - hence asking on here
Título: Re: Alvis Saracen e Stalwart adquiridos por Portugal (purchased by Portugal)
Enviado por: Duarte em Fevereiro 21, 2026, 12:54:08 am
It was common for companies to seek approval for sales, but the actual sale did not always materialize. Since the Stalwart was an amphibious truck, I can see it being approved by the UK government for sale to Portugal, however, in over 40 ears of closely following Portuguese military affairs, I have never read, seen or heard reference to such a purchase. The most likely candidate force for this would have been the Marines (Fuzileiros), but there is no record of such a purchase that I am aware of.

The only (remote) possibility I can think of is that a small batch, or perhaps even just one, were purchased for evaluation purposes?
Título: Re: Alvis Saracen e Stalwart adquiridos por Portugal (purchased by Portugal)
Enviado por: Mark_Ellis em Fevereiro 21, 2026, 01:30:01 am
I'm aware that Portugal bought the Bravia Chaimite (V-200) around 1970 - which is just after these internal Government letters of May 1969. So maybe they chose the Chaimite over the Saracen

On 11th Feb 2026 I did email the Portuguese Ministry of Defence. Under the Freedom Of Information Act, I asked if they have any records of any Stalwart, just in case they did have any. I emailed ddn@defesa.pt which I presume is the correct address for such things. And of course it is too early to expect a response yet.

The problem with the Alvis records, is that they lost the records from chassis STAL 11/570 onwards. We know that the last British army Stalwart was chassis STAL 11/956. So anything is possible.

Whilst the Stalwart is amphibious, it is really a phenomenal off road truck, that also swims if need be, rather than an amphibious craft that drives on land. There were issues with water getting into the drive train, needing oil changes after swimming.
Driving them empty for too many miles also caused issues with the two Bendix Tracta joint (Constant velocity joints) for each wheel. So they were only used for battlefield front line supply, and not general cargo trucks.

The British army had 1055 Stalwarts, with the majority being based in Germany. They were ideal for getting fuel, ammunition and other stores to the front line tank and artillery regiments, which in war would be well away from any road.
I'm ex British Royal Engineer, and used to drive Stalwarts in the early 1980s, and know just how good they are off road.

I'm aware that many Austrian (bought 5), French (bought 1), German (bought 3) and Italian (bought 1) people didn't know that their governments had bought small numbers in the 1960s. So I won't say Never yet. Sweden bought 26
Título: Re: Alvis Saracen e Stalwart adquiridos por Portugal (purchased by Portugal)
Enviado por: Duarte em Fevereiro 21, 2026, 02:21:54 pm
A small purchase is entirely possible, and could explain why it has "flown under the radar" all these decades. Portugal is notorious for having a mishmash of equipment of all different sources, especially during the colonial war period. The interest in Saracen would've been quite likely as there was a pressing need to replace WWII era scout cars and acquire armoured personnel carriers at the time, but as you mentioned they opted for a homegrown Bravia Chaimite. The fact the UK govt approved such a sale of Saracens is surprising, given the hostility to Portugal's overseas policies  at the time.
Hopefully you'll hear back from the MOD.
Título: Re: Alvis Saracen e Stalwart adquiridos por Portugal (purchased by Portugal)
Enviado por: Mark_Ellis em Fevereiro 21, 2026, 03:44:41 pm
The Portuguese Government had to submit a Confidential assurance to Alvis that they would not be re-exported and used in Africa. Sale was approved for NATO use only.
The Forum won't let me attach images.
Título: Re: Alvis Saracen e Stalwart adquiridos por Portugal (purchased by Portugal)
Enviado por: Duarte em Fevereiro 21, 2026, 04:28:33 pm
You can upload images for free here:  https://imgbb.com (https://imgbb.com)

and use the BBCode option to post on the forum..

(https://i.ibb.co/YmG3Txj/Screenshot-2026-02-21-at-11-26-39-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/RfW94qH)
Título: Re: Alvis Saracen e Stalwart adquiridos por Portugal (purchased by Portugal)
Enviado por: Duarte em Fevereiro 21, 2026, 04:30:50 pm
Citação de: Mark_Ellis em Fevereiro 21, 2026, 03:44:41 pm
The Portuguese Government had to submit a Confidential assurance to Alvis that they would not be re-exported and used in Africa. Sale was approved for NATO use only.
The Forum won't let me attach images.

That requirement is probably why the sale wasn't completed. The regime at the time was entirely focused in Africa and that was where the need for Saracens existed.
Título: Re: Alvis Saracen e Stalwart adquiridos por Portugal (purchased by Portugal)
Enviado por: Mark_Ellis em Fevereiro 22, 2026, 10:13:34 pm
Citação de: Duarte em Fevereiro 21, 2026, 04:28:33 pm
You can upload images for free here:  https://imgbb.com (https://imgbb.com)

and use the BBCode option to post on the forum..

Duarte, the problem with these photo hosting scams, is that once your subscription expires, the forum is full of broken links where photos should be. Rather frustrating for people who are researching something in 10 years time, and find lots of broken links
Título: Re: Alvis Saracen e Stalwart adquiridos por Portugal (purchased by Portugal)
Enviado por: Duarte em Fevereiro 22, 2026, 10:34:27 pm
Citação de: Mark_Ellis em Fevereiro 22, 2026, 10:13:34 pm
Duarte, the problem with these photo hosting scams, is that once your subscription expires, the forum is full of broken links where photos should be. Rather frustrating for people who are researching something in 10 years time, and find lots of broken links

There is no subscription or account needed to upload to imgbb.com
Título: Re: Alvis Saracen e Stalwart adquiridos por Portugal (purchased by Portugal)
Enviado por: Mark_Ellis em Fevereiro 22, 2026, 10:54:11 pm
Citação de: Duarte em Fevereiro 22, 2026, 10:34:27 pm
Citação de: Mark_Ellis em Fevereiro 22, 2026, 10:13:34 pm
Duarte, the problem with these photo hosting scams, is that once your subscription expires, the forum is full of broken links where photos should be. Rather frustrating for people who are researching something in 10 years time, and find lots of broken links

There is no subscription or account needed to upload to imgbb.com

Until the website closes or has a clear out. I don't understand why it won't let me attach a file, when it's offered at the bottom of the reply box

(https://i.ibb.co/B2K7v3S1/Stalwart-to-Portugal.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Dfg6mWSq)
Título: Re: Alvis Saracen e Stalwart adquiridos por Portugal (purchased by Portugal)
Enviado por: Duarte em Fevereiro 22, 2026, 11:44:11 pm
Citação de: Mark_Ellis em Fevereiro 22, 2026, 10:54:11 pm
Until the website closes or has a clear out. I don't understand why it won't let me attach a file, when it's offered at the bottom of the reply box

I can guarantee you that any interest Portugal had in Saracens or Stalwarts in 1969 was precisely for use in the African territories. NATO commitments were the last thing on their mind at that point. This requirement of the equipment remaining in metropolitan Portugal would've been the end of that endeavor, no doubt.