Substituição dos Alpha-jet

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Red Baron

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Re: Substituição dos Alpha-jet
« Responder #690 em: Julho 15, 2020, 12:47:23 pm »
Pessoal, tenho duas questões genuínas (por uma vez, não estou a ser sarcástico...):

1. Eu sei que os planos para treino avançado nos EUA foi por água abaixo porque os americanos não conseguiam assegurar os 3 ou 4 slots que precisamos por ano, mas porque é que não fazemos isso na IFTS em Itália?

2. Falando em IFTS, acham mesmo que há espaço para uma segunda Escola Internacional em Beja? A mim parece-me  mais uma daquelas ideias à Tuga, mal parida...

Cheers
João

Não só é mais caro em Italia, como os italianos também tem pilotos a treinar nos EUA porque tem mais qualidade.

A escola vai ser de uma empresa privada, não é uma ideia nossa.

 
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Lightning

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Re: Substituição dos Alpha-jet
« Responder #691 em: Julho 15, 2020, 03:00:11 pm »
Não só é mais caro em Italia, como os italianos também tem pilotos a treinar nos EUA porque tem mais qualidade.

Penso que o CEMFA referiu isso no parlamento, que o curso em Itália era mais caro e que não abrangia as matérias todas, deve ser em comparação com o curso americano.
 

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Charlie Jaguar

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Re: Substituição dos Alpha-jet
« Responder #692 em: Julho 15, 2020, 03:26:19 pm »
Bom, atendendo ao ponto de vista da Boeing o Red Hawk deveria ser o sucessor natural do Alpha-Jet também na FAP.

Citar
Farnborough 2020
Boeing sees T-7 as combat replacement for Northrop F-5 and Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet
By Garrett Reim | 14 July 2020

Boeing believes a light-attack variant of its T-7 jet trainer could replace the world’s ageing fleets of Northrop F-5 and Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet combat aircraft. Boeing has long touted the “growth potential” of the T-7, noting that the trainer could be retrofitted with weapons, such as missiles or bombs, to serve as a combat aircraft. The company has said that it believes there is a global market for 2,600 T-7s, as trainers, light-attack or aggressor aircraft.

The Chicago-based airframer declines to say what countries are likely buyers of the T-7. However, the firm notes in response to a question from FlightGlobal that light combat jets such as the F-5 and Alpha Jet would be good candidates to be replaced by the T-7. Both of those aircraft also serve trainer roles within various air forces. There are 435 examples of the F-5 still in service worldwide, according to Cirium fleets data. The light jet was first delivered in 1964 and ceased production in 1989, according to Northrop. Of the worldwide fleet still in operation, the jets have an average age of 41.4 years. The F-5 is operated by 17 different countries, including the air forces of Brazil, Kenya, Morocco and Thailand.

There are 174 examples of the Alpha Jet still in service worldwide, Cirium data shows. The French and German-made light jet first took flight in 1973, according to Dassault. Of the worldwide active fleet, the jets have an average age of 38 years. The aircraft is operated by 11 countries, including Egypt, France and Morocco. Boeing notes that many potential sales opportunities for the T-7, as a trainer or combat aircraft, are likely to come from the Asia-Pacific region. “We do see some strong interest in that region,” says Thomas Breckenridge, vice-president of international sales in Boeing’s strike, surveillance and mobility business unit.

The manufacturer is on contract to build up to 351 examples for the US Air Force (USAF), with the first aircraft scheduled for delivery in 2023. The USAF variant of the trainer is called the T-7A Red Hawk. The jet is scheduled to achieve initial operational capability by 2024 and full operational capability by 2034. Testing of two prototypes of the T-7A is under way, with more than 200 flights on the aircraft completed to date. Boeing has started building its first engineering, manufacturing and development variant of the aircraft for the USAF, but declines to say when that aircraft will first fly.

https://www.flightglobal.com/farnborough-2020/boeing-sees-t-7-as-combat-replacement-for-northrop-f-5-and-dassault/dornier-alpha-jet/139289.article
Saudações Aeronáuticas,
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dc

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Re: Substituição dos Alpha-jet
« Responder #693 em: Julho 15, 2020, 06:48:32 pm »
O problema é o dinheiro, e não haver interesse em comprar um avião novo, devido à ideia da escola privada.

Enquanto não se decidirem e continuar tudo em stand-by, não haverá aviões novos.
 

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JohnM

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Re: Substituição dos Alpha-jet
« Responder #694 em: Julho 15, 2020, 07:00:49 pm »
Bom, atendendo ao ponto de vista da Boeing o Red Hawk deveria ser o sucessor natural do Alpha-Jet também na FAP.

Citar
Farnborough 2020
Boeing sees T-7 as combat replacement for Northrop F-5 and Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet
By Garrett Reim | 14 July 2020

Boeing believes a light-attack variant of its T-7 jet trainer could replace the world’s ageing fleets of Northrop F-5 and Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet combat aircraft. Boeing has long touted the “growth potential” of the T-7, noting that the trainer could be retrofitted with weapons, such as missiles or bombs, to serve as a combat aircraft. The company has said that it believes there is a global market for 2,600 T-7s, as trainers, light-attack or aggressor aircraft.

The Chicago-based airframer declines to say what countries are likely buyers of the T-7. However, the firm notes in response to a question from FlightGlobal that light combat jets such as the F-5 and Alpha Jet would be good candidates to be replaced by the T-7. Both of those aircraft also serve trainer roles within various air forces. There are 435 examples of the F-5 still in service worldwide, according to Cirium fleets data. The light jet was first delivered in 1964 and ceased production in 1989, according to Northrop. Of the worldwide fleet still in operation, the jets have an average age of 41.4 years. The F-5 is operated by 17 different countries, including the air forces of Brazil, Kenya, Morocco and Thailand.

There are 174 examples of the Alpha Jet still in service worldwide, Cirium data shows. The French and German-made light jet first took flight in 1973, according to Dassault. Of the worldwide active fleet, the jets have an average age of 38 years. The aircraft is operated by 11 countries, including Egypt, France and Morocco. Boeing notes that many potential sales opportunities for the T-7, as a trainer or combat aircraft, are likely to come from the Asia-Pacific region. “We do see some strong interest in that region,” says Thomas Breckenridge, vice-president of international sales in Boeing’s strike, surveillance and mobility business unit.

The manufacturer is on contract to build up to 351 examples for the US Air Force (USAF), with the first aircraft scheduled for delivery in 2023. The USAF variant of the trainer is called the T-7A Red Hawk. The jet is scheduled to achieve initial operational capability by 2024 and full operational capability by 2034. Testing of two prototypes of the T-7A is under way, with more than 200 flights on the aircraft completed to date. Boeing has started building its first engineering, manufacturing and development variant of the aircraft for the USAF, but declines to say when that aircraft will first fly.

https://www.flightglobal.com/farnborough-2020/boeing-sees-t-7-as-combat-replacement-for-northrop-f-5-and-dassault/dornier-alpha-jet/139289.article

Obrigado pela informação CJ, muito interessante. A USAF está a estudar a hipótese de mudar completamente as etapas finais de formação de pilotos e, para isso, comprar uma versão F/T-7X (vão até fazer leasing de 8-12 aviões nos próximos 3-4 anos para verficar a viabilidade da ideia). Além disso, também estão a estudar a hipótese de desenvolver uma versão de caça ligeiro para substituir o F-16 mais velhos que neste momento usam para defesa do espaço aéreo americano. Isso faz-me pensar se não seria inteligente, no longo prazo (2030+), termos uma esquadra de 12-15 F-35 para missões NATO e outra de 12-15 F/T-7 para treino avançado e defesa do nosso espaço aéreo... just a thought...

Cheers
João
« Última modificação: Julho 15, 2020, 07:01:16 pm por JohnM »
 
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Red Baron

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Re: Substituição dos Alpha-jet
« Responder #695 em: Julho 15, 2020, 07:48:45 pm »
Bom, atendendo ao ponto de vista da Boeing o Red Hawk deveria ser o sucessor natural do Alpha-Jet também na FAP.

Citar
Farnborough 2020
Boeing sees T-7 as combat replacement for Northrop F-5 and Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet
By Garrett Reim | 14 July 2020

Boeing believes a light-attack variant of its T-7 jet trainer could replace the world’s ageing fleets of Northrop F-5 and Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet combat aircraft. Boeing has long touted the “growth potential” of the T-7, noting that the trainer could be retrofitted with weapons, such as missiles or bombs, to serve as a combat aircraft. The company has said that it believes there is a global market for 2,600 T-7s, as trainers, light-attack or aggressor aircraft.

The Chicago-based airframer declines to say what countries are likely buyers of the T-7. However, the firm notes in response to a question from FlightGlobal that light combat jets such as the F-5 and Alpha Jet would be good candidates to be replaced by the T-7. Both of those aircraft also serve trainer roles within various air forces. There are 435 examples of the F-5 still in service worldwide, according to Cirium fleets data. The light jet was first delivered in 1964 and ceased production in 1989, according to Northrop. Of the worldwide fleet still in operation, the jets have an average age of 41.4 years. The F-5 is operated by 17 different countries, including the air forces of Brazil, Kenya, Morocco and Thailand.

There are 174 examples of the Alpha Jet still in service worldwide, Cirium data shows. The French and German-made light jet first took flight in 1973, according to Dassault. Of the worldwide active fleet, the jets have an average age of 38 years. The aircraft is operated by 11 countries, including Egypt, France and Morocco. Boeing notes that many potential sales opportunities for the T-7, as a trainer or combat aircraft, are likely to come from the Asia-Pacific region. “We do see some strong interest in that region,” says Thomas Breckenridge, vice-president of international sales in Boeing’s strike, surveillance and mobility business unit.

The manufacturer is on contract to build up to 351 examples for the US Air Force (USAF), with the first aircraft scheduled for delivery in 2023. The USAF variant of the trainer is called the T-7A Red Hawk. The jet is scheduled to achieve initial operational capability by 2024 and full operational capability by 2034. Testing of two prototypes of the T-7A is under way, with more than 200 flights on the aircraft completed to date. Boeing has started building its first engineering, manufacturing and development variant of the aircraft for the USAF, but declines to say when that aircraft will first fly.

https://www.flightglobal.com/farnborough-2020/boeing-sees-t-7-as-combat-replacement-for-northrop-f-5-and-dassault/dornier-alpha-jet/139289.article

O problema é que a FAP não quer um avião, quer apenas horas de voo. Se a Boeing meter dois ou três aviões disponíveis em Beja com horas de voo para comprar a um preço bom, a FAP não vai dizer que não.  ;)

 

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dc

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Re: Substituição dos Alpha-jet
« Responder #696 em: Julho 15, 2020, 10:18:30 pm »
Bom, atendendo ao ponto de vista da Boeing o Red Hawk deveria ser o sucessor natural do Alpha-Jet também na FAP.

Citar
Farnborough 2020
Boeing sees T-7 as combat replacement for Northrop F-5 and Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet
By Garrett Reim | 14 July 2020

Boeing believes a light-attack variant of its T-7 jet trainer could replace the world’s ageing fleets of Northrop F-5 and Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet combat aircraft. Boeing has long touted the “growth potential” of the T-7, noting that the trainer could be retrofitted with weapons, such as missiles or bombs, to serve as a combat aircraft. The company has said that it believes there is a global market for 2,600 T-7s, as trainers, light-attack or aggressor aircraft.

The Chicago-based airframer declines to say what countries are likely buyers of the T-7. However, the firm notes in response to a question from FlightGlobal that light combat jets such as the F-5 and Alpha Jet would be good candidates to be replaced by the T-7. Both of those aircraft also serve trainer roles within various air forces. There are 435 examples of the F-5 still in service worldwide, according to Cirium fleets data. The light jet was first delivered in 1964 and ceased production in 1989, according to Northrop. Of the worldwide fleet still in operation, the jets have an average age of 41.4 years. The F-5 is operated by 17 different countries, including the air forces of Brazil, Kenya, Morocco and Thailand.

There are 174 examples of the Alpha Jet still in service worldwide, Cirium data shows. The French and German-made light jet first took flight in 1973, according to Dassault. Of the worldwide active fleet, the jets have an average age of 38 years. The aircraft is operated by 11 countries, including Egypt, France and Morocco. Boeing notes that many potential sales opportunities for the T-7, as a trainer or combat aircraft, are likely to come from the Asia-Pacific region. “We do see some strong interest in that region,” says Thomas Breckenridge, vice-president of international sales in Boeing’s strike, surveillance and mobility business unit.

The manufacturer is on contract to build up to 351 examples for the US Air Force (USAF), with the first aircraft scheduled for delivery in 2023. The USAF variant of the trainer is called the T-7A Red Hawk. The jet is scheduled to achieve initial operational capability by 2024 and full operational capability by 2034. Testing of two prototypes of the T-7A is under way, with more than 200 flights on the aircraft completed to date. Boeing has started building its first engineering, manufacturing and development variant of the aircraft for the USAF, but declines to say when that aircraft will first fly.

https://www.flightglobal.com/farnborough-2020/boeing-sees-t-7-as-combat-replacement-for-northrop-f-5-and-dassault/dornier-alpha-jet/139289.article

Obrigado pela informação CJ, muito interessante. A USAF está a estudar a hipótese de mudar completamente as etapas finais de formação de pilotos e, para isso, comprar uma versão F/T-7X (vão até fazer leasing de 8-12 aviões nos próximos 3-4 anos para verficar a viabilidade da ideia). Além disso, também estão a estudar a hipótese de desenvolver uma versão de caça ligeiro para substituir o F-16 mais velhos que neste momento usam para defesa do espaço aéreo americano. Isso faz-me pensar se não seria inteligente, no longo prazo (2030+), termos uma esquadra de 12-15 F-35 para missões NATO e outra de 12-15 F/T-7 para treino avançado e defesa do nosso espaço aéreo... just a thought...

Cheers
João

Em teoria não é um mau "conceito", e é algo que poderia ser já feito facilmente se tivesse ocorrido a substituição dos Alpha Jet por algo como o M-346. Assim não pesava tanto a venda dos F-16 à Roménia, e permitia um alívio das missões destes caças na FAP.

O problema é que ficar com 15+12, não só é um número por si inferior ao de F-16, como 12 dessas aeronaves são caças low cost com muitas limitações. Se dissesses 20/24 F-35, complementados então por 12 T-7 armados, já estava mais de acordo, pois reduzias o número de caças de primeira linha, mas aumentava o número de aeronaves com potencial de combate.
 

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typhonman

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Re: Substituição dos Alpha-jet
« Responder #697 em: Julho 15, 2020, 10:22:12 pm »
Bom, atendendo ao ponto de vista da Boeing o Red Hawk deveria ser o sucessor natural do Alpha-Jet também na FAP.

Citar
Farnborough 2020
Boeing sees T-7 as combat replacement for Northrop F-5 and Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet
By Garrett Reim | 14 July 2020

Boeing believes a light-attack variant of its T-7 jet trainer could replace the world’s ageing fleets of Northrop F-5 and Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet combat aircraft. Boeing has long touted the “growth potential” of the T-7, noting that the trainer could be retrofitted with weapons, such as missiles or bombs, to serve as a combat aircraft. The company has said that it believes there is a global market for 2,600 T-7s, as trainers, light-attack or aggressor aircraft.

The Chicago-based airframer declines to say what countries are likely buyers of the T-7. However, the firm notes in response to a question from FlightGlobal that light combat jets such as the F-5 and Alpha Jet would be good candidates to be replaced by the T-7. Both of those aircraft also serve trainer roles within various air forces. There are 435 examples of the F-5 still in service worldwide, according to Cirium fleets data. The light jet was first delivered in 1964 and ceased production in 1989, according to Northrop. Of the worldwide fleet still in operation, the jets have an average age of 41.4 years. The F-5 is operated by 17 different countries, including the air forces of Brazil, Kenya, Morocco and Thailand.

There are 174 examples of the Alpha Jet still in service worldwide, Cirium data shows. The French and German-made light jet first took flight in 1973, according to Dassault. Of the worldwide active fleet, the jets have an average age of 38 years. The aircraft is operated by 11 countries, including Egypt, France and Morocco. Boeing notes that many potential sales opportunities for the T-7, as a trainer or combat aircraft, are likely to come from the Asia-Pacific region. “We do see some strong interest in that region,” says Thomas Breckenridge, vice-president of international sales in Boeing’s strike, surveillance and mobility business unit.

The manufacturer is on contract to build up to 351 examples for the US Air Force (USAF), with the first aircraft scheduled for delivery in 2023. The USAF variant of the trainer is called the T-7A Red Hawk. The jet is scheduled to achieve initial operational capability by 2024 and full operational capability by 2034. Testing of two prototypes of the T-7A is under way, with more than 200 flights on the aircraft completed to date. Boeing has started building its first engineering, manufacturing and development variant of the aircraft for the USAF, but declines to say when that aircraft will first fly.

https://www.flightglobal.com/farnborough-2020/boeing-sees-t-7-as-combat-replacement-for-northrop-f-5-and-dassault/dornier-alpha-jet/139289.article

Obrigado pela informação CJ, muito interessante. A USAF está a estudar a hipótese de mudar completamente as etapas finais de formação de pilotos e, para isso, comprar uma versão F/T-7X (vão até fazer leasing de 8-12 aviões nos próximos 3-4 anos para verficar a viabilidade da ideia). Além disso, também estão a estudar a hipótese de desenvolver uma versão de caça ligeiro para substituir o F-16 mais velhos que neste momento usam para defesa do espaço aéreo americano. Isso faz-me pensar se não seria inteligente, no longo prazo (2030+), termos uma esquadra de 12-15 F-35 para missões NATO e outra de 12-15 F/T-7 para treino avançado e defesa do nosso espaço aéreo... just a thought...

Cheers
João

Em teoria não é um mau "conceito", e é algo que poderia ser já feito facilmente se tivesse ocorrido a substituição dos Alpha Jet por algo como o M-346. Assim não pesava tanto a venda dos F-16 à Roménia, e permitia um alívio das missões destes caças na FAP.

O problema é que ficar com 15+12, não só é um número por si inferior ao de F-16, como 12 dessas aeronaves são caças low cost com muitas limitações. Se dissesses 20/24 F-35, complementados então por 12 T-7 armados, já estava mais de acordo, pois reduzias o número de caças de primeira linha, mas aumentava o número de aeronaves com potencial de combate.

O futuro será:

1) 25 F-35A

2) 15 F-35A e 20 F-16V

Esqueçam a missão de CAS na 103, o objetivo FAP é o M-346, não fosse "Leonardo".
 

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dc

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Re: Substituição dos Alpha-jet
« Responder #698 em: Julho 15, 2020, 10:28:24 pm »
O futuro é é negro.  :mrgreen:
Nem para os M-346 aparenta haver dinheiro, quanto mais para 25 F-35.
 

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typhonman

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Re: Substituição dos Alpha-jet
« Responder #699 em: Julho 15, 2020, 10:29:01 pm »
O futuro é é negro.  :mrgreen:
Nem para os M-346 aparenta haver dinheiro, quanto mais para 25 F-35.

Não será assim tão negro.
 

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dc

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Re: Substituição dos Alpha-jet
« Responder #700 em: Julho 15, 2020, 10:32:27 pm »
Não?  ???
 

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raphael

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Re: Substituição dos Alpha-jet
« Responder #701 em: Julho 15, 2020, 11:01:52 pm »
Não?  ???

deve ser trocadilho...porque fontes de financiamento está escasso...

diria antes: futuro? qual futuro?
Um abraço
Raphael
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Re: Substituição dos Alpha-jet
« Responder #702 em: Julho 15, 2020, 11:19:49 pm »
Acho que vai haver uma normal redução no numero de F´s e um acréscimo de pilotos de UAV nos próximos anos.
E não sei se os pilotos de UAV fazem treino de pilotagem avançado.
 

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Re: Substituição dos Alpha-jet
« Responder #703 em: Julho 15, 2020, 11:50:03 pm »
Para caça ligeiro, acho o T-50/TA-50/FA-50 coreano muito mais adequado que o avião da Boeing.
Talent de ne rien faire
 
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Kalil

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Re: Substituição dos Alpha-jet
« Responder #704 em: Julho 15, 2020, 11:53:28 pm »
Mas qual UAV, se nunca sequer houve planos nesse sentido até à data?
Seria a evolução lógica e, no caso português, faria todo o sentido tendo em conta a extensão territorial a vigiar.

O conceito high/low end faria todo o sentido como proposto pelo João.

Eu só teria o cuidado estratégico de optar por 12 Rafale mais 12 m346. Nós podemos estar muito afastados de um conflito armado por não termos quezílias de cariz territorial ou político mas, e este mandato/eleição do trump só o veio confirmar, a política está num nível muito volátil, mesmo quando se trata do país mais influente do mundo.
Acho sempre preferível ter fornecedores diversificados e europeus, pois esse afinal, será sempre o nosso "bloco", que depender unicamente do tio Sam.
Imaginem um presidente como o trump a decidir por capricho cancelar a manutenção e apoio à frota overseas do f35? Fácil de imaginar, não é?
 
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