http://www.library.yale.edu/slavic/microform/ukraineholodomorfamine.html
Este site diz-nos que entre 1932 e 1933, morreram entre 3 a 6 milhões de pessoas de fome consequência directa da colectivização. Ou seja, recolheram as colheitas não lhes deixando nada e eles acabaram por morrer à fome.
Aparentemente os russos tem documentos sobre a Holodomer...ah..deixa-me adivinhar...a propaganda nazi era tão boa que até a União Sovietica fez documentários sobre isso?
Não vi documentos soviéticos nenhuns.
http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?threadid=126629&goto=nextoldest
Neste forum alguém abre o tópico com acusações mais graves, subindo a parada do número de mortes, entre 7 e 9 milhões de mortes. Ele afirma que os censos dizem que em 1927 a população era de aproximadamente 32 milhões e passou a 28 milhões em 1939.
Contudo vão surgindo comentários...
"Considering that Ukraine was yet to go through World War Two in 1938, the population growth rates are pretty similar after 1938.
If you want to consider people who were never born as genocide victims, then over the past 15 years Ukraine has been subject to a greater genocide."
Também não leste este comentário
"During the years 1930--1935, the Soviet Union was short of labor, especially in newly developed regions.
In 1932, the Ukrainian population was 25 million inhabitants. To kill 7-9 million people would have been economic and demographic suicide. The entire industrialised workforce of the SU at the time was only around eight million workers.
The main proponent of the 'Terror Famine' hypothesis is a former OUN and Nazi collaborator called Dushnyck. He invented a 'scientific' method to calculate the dead during the `famine-genocide'.
"(Taking the data according to the 1926 census ... and the January 17, 1939 census ... and the average increase before the collectivization ... (2.36 per cent per year), it can be calculated that Ukraine ... lost 7,500,000 people between the two censuses."
These calculations are meaningless.
The world war, the civil wars and the great famine of 1920-1922 all provoked a drop in the birth rate. The new generation born in that period reached physical maturity, 16 years of age, around 1930. The structure of the population would necessarily lead to a drop in the birthrate in the thirties.
Free abortion had also dramatically reduced the birthrate during the thirties, to the point where the government banned it in 1936 to increase the population.
The years 1929-1933 were characterized by great, violent struggles in the countryside, accompanied by times of genuine famine. Economic and social conditions of this kind reduce the birthrate.
The number of people registered as Ukrainians changed through inter-ethnic marriages, changes in the declared nationality and by migrations.
The borders of the Ukraine were not even the same in 1926 and 1939. The Kuban Cossaks, between 2 and 3 million people, were registered as Ukrainian in 1926, but were reclassified as Russian at the end of the twenties. This new classification explains by itself 25 to 40 per cent of the `victims of the famine-genocide' calculated by Dushnyck.
In addition, the Soviet State Archives (GARF) were opened in the early 90s. A team of American professors analysed the data relating to the deportations. Their research was published in the American Historical Review in October 1993.
It can be quickly summed up.
During the most violent period of the collectivization, in 1930--1931, the Bolsheviks expropriated 381,026 kulaks and sent their families to unplowed land to the East. These included 1,803,392 persons. As of 1 January 1932, there were 1,317,022 people in the new establishments. The difference is of 486,000. The disorganization helping, many of the deported were able to escape during the trip, which often took three months or more. (To give an idea, of the 1,317,022 settled, 207,010 were able to flee during the year 1932.)
Others, whose case was reviewed, were allowed to return home. An undetermined number, that we have estimated at 100,000, died during the travels, mainly because of epidemics. The considerable number of deaths during displacements must be seen in the context of that epoch: a weak administration, precarious living conditions for the entire population, sometimes chaotic class struggles among the peasant population overtaken by leftism. The Party's position is clearly stated in one of the numerous reports about this problem, this one dated 20 December 1931 by the person responsible for a work camp at Novossibirsk.
The high mortality observed for convoys nos 18 to 23 coming from the North Caucasus --- 2,421 persons out of 10,086 upon departure --- can be explained by the following reasons:
1. A negligent, criminal approach to the selection of deported contingents, among whom were many children, aged over 65 years of age and sick people;
2. The non-respect of directives about the right for deportees to bring with them provisions for two months of transfer.
3. The lack of clean water, which forced the deported to drink unclean water. Many are dead of dysentery and of other epidemics.'
Conquest `calculated' that 3,500,000 kulaks were 'exterminated' in the camps.
But the total number of dekulakized in the colonies never exceeded 1,317,022! And between 1932 and 1935, the number of departures exceeded by 299,389 the number of arrivals. From 1932 to the end of 1940, the exact number of deaths, essentially due to natural causes, was 389,521. And this number does not just include dekulakized, since after 1935 other categories were in the colonies as well.
According to GARF, only 35,000 people were judicially executed for serious crimes between 1930 and 1933, with the bulk of these (30,000) being executed in 1930 and 1931. Not all of these were Kulaks or even Ukrainians.
These are the FACTS."
É engraçado que depois deste post, a conversa mudou de rumo e acabaram a discutir as indeminizações dos sionistas. :lol:
Curioso...até os próprios ucranianos acreditam que houve a crise....epá...a propaganda nazi é mesmo 5 estrelas.
Tens razão, aposto que muitos desses ucranianos até estavam lá em 1932 e confirmam a morte de qualquer coisa entre 3 e 9 milhões de pessoas.
Ou vais simplesmente negar tudo?
Não vou negar, vou questionar que é diferente. E apenas aceito como verdade ou como mentira aquilo que me fôr factualmente provado.
