Pandur II

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Re: Pandur II
« Responder #2475 em: Agosto 26, 2022, 08:07:03 pm »
Motores potentes demais para as viaturas. Morteiros potentes demais, ou no inverso, veículos fracos para os morteiros pretendidos.

Bela lista de compras quase aleatórias.

Então e uns Pandur com 120 e uns vantac com 81, não???
Ou então 120 mm mas montado num sistemas em que se apoia no solo no disparo(como apresentado no vídeo)? Muito lento?

Isto no exército parece o contrário da Marinha, onde 1800 toneladas "carregam" um par de .50 e um par de 7,62mm.

Quem os entende?

Mas a verdade é que devia ter sido planeado logo nas aquisições de Pandur e Vantac, que versões fazem falta, ou melhor fazem parte existir.
Agora mais umas aquisições de viaturas diferentes.

As tantas quando for dos novos AC e AA montados em viaturas será outra festa assim 






 

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Re: Pandur II
« Responder #2476 em: Outubro 03, 2022, 02:27:58 pm »
Pandur Evolution for Drone Defense and Short Range Air Defense

Citar
At the AirPower22 in Zeltweg/Austria, GDELS-Steyr presented an air defense system for short and close range, with two Pandur Evolution as carrier vehicles. According to a statement from GDELS-Steyr, one Pandur Evo carries Saab's Giraffe 1X radar system as a sensor, while the other carries MBDA's Mistral Atlas RC effector.

According to GDELS-Steyr, the Saab G1X 3D air surveillance radar has a range of up to 75 kilometers and enables the detection, classification and tracking of airborne threats. According to the manufacturer MBDA, the IR-seeking Mistral missile has a success rate of 96 percent and is said to be able to combat UAVs, high-speed aircraft and highly maneuverable jets and helicopters alike.

In addition to the Pandur Evo as an armored personnel carrier, which has been in use with the German army since 2018, GDELS-Steyr presented a Pandur Evo for anti-tank defense at the Eurosatory 2022, with a modern impact turret (Integrated Precision Attack Combat Turret) from MBDA with two integrated 5th generation Akeron MP anti-tank guided missiles.

As the company writes, shortly before that, GDELS-Steyr had integrated a remote-controlled 30mm RS6 weapon system from Kongsberg (30 x 113) into the Pandur Evo in Pocek, Slovenia, and successfully presented it with a live shot at the Kongsberg User Conference.

With the variants presented, GDELS is continuing its multi-role strategy for the Pandur 6×6 Evo. Due to tight defense budgets, the focus was on efficiency in terms of user-friendliness, training and logistics right from the conception stage of the vehicle, and a vehicle platform that was as flexible as possible and capable of fulfilling various roles in operations was developed, says GDELS.



« Última modificação: Outubro 03, 2022, 02:28:52 pm por LM »
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
 
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Re: Pandur II
« Responder #2477 em: Outubro 03, 2022, 05:49:49 pm »
Pandur Evolution for Drone Defense and Short Range Air Defense

Citar
At the AirPower22 in Zeltweg/Austria, GDELS-Steyr presented an air defense system for short and close range, with two Pandur Evolution as carrier vehicles. According to a statement from GDELS-Steyr, one Pandur Evo carries Saab's Giraffe 1X radar system as a sensor, while the other carries MBDA's Mistral Atlas RC effector.

According to GDELS-Steyr, the Saab G1X 3D air surveillance radar has a range of up to 75 kilometers and enables the detection, classification and tracking of airborne threats. According to the manufacturer MBDA, the IR-seeking Mistral missile has a success rate of 96 percent and is said to be able to combat UAVs, high-speed aircraft and highly maneuverable jets and helicopters alike.

In addition to the Pandur Evo as an armored personnel carrier, which has been in use with the German army since 2018, GDELS-Steyr presented a Pandur Evo for anti-tank defense at the Eurosatory 2022, with a modern impact turret (Integrated Precision Attack Combat Turret) from MBDA with two integrated 5th generation Akeron MP anti-tank guided missiles.

As the company writes, shortly before that, GDELS-Steyr had integrated a remote-controlled 30mm RS6 weapon system from Kongsberg (30 x 113) into the Pandur Evo in Pocek, Slovenia, and successfully presented it with a live shot at the Kongsberg User Conference.

With the variants presented, GDELS is continuing its multi-role strategy for the Pandur 6×6 Evo. Due to tight defense budgets, the focus was on efficiency in terms of user-friendliness, training and logistics right from the conception stage of the vehicle, and a vehicle platform that was as flexible as possible and capable of fulfilling various roles in operations was developed, says GDELS.



Excelente oportunidade para adquirir uns quantos 6X6 versao DCA.

Abraços
Quando um Povo/Governo não Respeita as Suas FFAA, Não Respeita a Sua História nem se Respeita a Si Próprio  !!
 
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Re: Pandur II
« Responder #2478 em: Outubro 03, 2022, 06:19:13 pm »
Ora, e porque não? Mais Pandur para a BrigInt, que bem precisa, nessa versão AA/C-UAS, e quiçá inclusive PM e AC?

No que diz respeito à versão AA, o radar Giraffe 1X até num ST5 pode ser instalado, o mesmo para o lançador Atlas RC. O que permitia uniformizar os sistemas SHORAD entre a BrigInt e BRR, só mudando a plataforma. No futuro, talvez até o eventual substituto do M-113 pudesse receber os mesmos sistemas.
 
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Re: Pandur II
« Responder #2479 em: Outubro 03, 2022, 06:32:03 pm »
Vendo o que se passa na Ucrânia percebo o erro de considerar que as 12,7mm (com atirador exposto!) servem para algo mais que paradas... a minha prioridade seria algo (tipo) 30mm RS6 da Kongsberg (que tem capacidade anti-drone qb, importante hoje em dia). Depois porta-morteiros e uniformizar um sistema (V)SHORAD entre a BrigInt e BRR (cada com as suas viaturas).

Falta tanta coisa, mesmo que queiramos apenas destacar um batalhão (-) da BrigInt.  :(     
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
 

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Re: Pandur II
« Responder #2480 em: Outubro 03, 2022, 09:45:24 pm »
O problema não é faltar muita coisa na BrigInt, é faltar praticamente tudo em todo o lado no que respeita às FA, o que faz com que o orçamento disponibilizado, tenha que ser dividido por todo o lado, e não chega para tudo.

Idealmente, para não focar tudo na BrigInt, terias capacidade de enviar a BrigMec, com cerca de metade dos Leopard, para um destacamento no Leste da Europa (até mesmo para ganhar experiência e poder participar em exercícios diferentes do habitual). Mas como falta um APC e/ou IFV moderno, nem os necessários veículos de apoio, não se envia nada, e acaba por cair tudo em cima da BRR e BrigInt.

Quanto aos Pandur, eu acho que a prioridade passa por eliminar as 3 lacunas (AA, AC e PM) de uma vez. Ora é pegar numa percentagem considerável dos Pandur APC, e substituir a Browning "despida", por uma RWS, que pode ser .50, 30mm ou LG 40mm, tanto faz. A RWS escolhida, teria que poder receber um (ou dois) míssil anti-carro, colmatando-se logo duas lacunas com um sistema. Entretanto, era adquirir Pandur Evo (quantidade por definir), parte deles PM, e os restantes para o sistema SHORAD (por exemplo 15 veículos com o Atlas RC e 5 com o radar, fazendo um rácio de 3 lançadores por radar).

Para concluir a "modernização" da BrigInt, era comprar nova artilharia AP, que neste momento seria uma das armas de maior valor para se destacar a Leste. Quiçá um dia, que esteja tudo resolvido, se inclua HIMARS e até loitering munition em camiões/contentores, que vão ter cada vez um peso maior na guerra.
 

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Re: Pandur II
« Responder #2481 em: Outubro 03, 2022, 09:46:05 pm »
Alguem sabe de os pandures são NBQ?
"Que todo o mundo seja «Portugal», isto é, que no mundo toda a gente se comporte como têm comportado os portugueses na história"
Agostinho da Silva
 

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Re: Pandur II
« Responder #2482 em: Outubro 03, 2022, 10:44:51 pm »
Alguem sabe de os pandures são NBQ?
São de série ou pelo menos têm tudo preparado para levar com o filtro e o sistema de pressão.
https://www.operacional.pt/vbr-8x8-tp-pandur-ii-127/
 
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Re: Pandur II
« Responder #2483 em: Outubro 04, 2022, 07:33:05 am »
As versões apresentadas neste artigo sobre o EVO 6X6, com a excepção do porta canhão, são as que actualmente estão em falta na frota pandur 8X8.


The Pandur Evolution 6×6 is one of the most powerful armored vehicles in its class. Around 20 years after the wheeled armored vehicle Pandur 6×6 was first introduced into the Austrian Armed Forces, General Dynamics European Land Systems (GDELS) developed the Pandur Evolution 6×6 in 2019, a variant of the vehicle with significantly increased combat effectiveness, and handed over the first examples to the infantry units of the Armed Forces . The Austrian fighters use the Pandur Evolution as a personnel carrier. The crew consists of a driver, gunner and vehicle commander, and there is also room for eight fully equipped infantrymen in the vehicle.

In order to meet the increased demands on the vehicle - especially in terms of protection - GDELS has completely revised the Evolution and relied on the proven concept of the monocoque hull made of armored steel with the drive train fully integrated into the hull. Following the construction philosophy of tactical wheeled vehicles – as implemented with the Boxer, for example – the entire drive train including hydraulic systems, the fuel system and the steering were left in the vehicle hull to protect them from ballistic threats. Another advantage of this design is the lower mechanical stress (dirt, impact damage, overheating) on ​​the components when driving in difficult terrain and the associated lower maintenance costs.

More recently, a variant of the vehicle that offers a combination of mobility and protection coupled with interior cargo transport capability on the C-130J tactical airlift aircraft has also been designated a protected platform by US Special Forces as part of the Armored Ground Mobility System Program (AGMS). selected for counterterror and reconnaissance operations. GDELS is currently mass-producing the Pandur Evolution, as more than 100 vehicles are already under contract, with a large proportion having already been delivered and having proven themselves in service with the troops.


The Pandur Evolution 6×6 as an internal load in a C-130 transport aircraft. (Photo: GDELS)

To the technique
Compared to other 6×6 wheeled tanks, the Pandur Evolution has a particularly powerful engine. The vehicle, which weighs around 18.6 tons and has a payload of up to 4.5 tons, is powered by an 8.9 liter Cummins ISLe 450 6-cylinder diesel engine with an output of 335 kW via a ZF 6-speed automatic transmission and reaches top speeds of 82 km/h (off-road) or 118 km/h (road). The power-to-weight ratio is 17.6 kW/t, which according to the Pandur GDELS gives it agility unrivaled in the vehicle class both on and off-road. The independent wheel suspension including the so-called Automatic Drivetrain Management with 100 percent locking efficiency also contributes to this. According to GDELS, this offers "fully automatic powertrain management (activation and deactivation of all-wheel drive, longitudinal/transverse locks) with possible manual partial or full override".


Drive train, hydraulics, cable winch and steering system (with the exception of the outer steering lever) are or can be installed within the protected vehicle pan. (Graphic: GDELS)
Including the mine protection and the additional armor from Rheinmetall Protection Systems - ballistic protection class according to STANAG 4569 Level 3 - the vehicle is only 2.6 meters wide and 2.2 meters high, which means that it can be transported by air in a C-130 H/J . An explosion suppression system, a decoupled floor (as part of mine protection; at the same time offers added value for crew comfort and ergonomics) and NBC protective ventilation contribute to the high level of protection.

Specifications Pandur Evolution 6×6
maximum weight allowed   19t
Curb weight   14.5 tons
Length Width Height   6.70m / 2.60m / 2.20m
Motor   6 cylinder (Cummins)
power   335 kW (455 hp)
power-to-weight ratio   17.6 kW/t (24 hp/t)
buoyancy   possible
independent suspension   yes
Steered axles   2
Protection class   STANAG 4569 Level 3 ballistic and higher than Level 3 mine protection
Decoupled floor   yes
Decoupled seats   yes
fire suppression system   yes
NBC protective ventilation system   yes
Possible crew   3+8
Full focus on tactical use in the field
The design philosophy of the vehicle is recognizable at first glance, the tactical use of the vehicle is the absolute focus. Comparable to main battle tanks and armored personnel carriers, the Pandur Evolution did not have a windscreen for the driver and commander for reasons of protection. The vehicle is guided either through the hatch or under the hatch using corner mirrors and 360-degree driver vision systems (day/night).

The arrangement of the engines (power pack concept) at the front right of the vehicle not only enables quick and easy access for maintenance and combat damage repairs, it also offers direct access to the driver from the combat compartment. If necessary, it can be salvaged under armor protection. According to the manufacturer, an engine replacement is possible within one hour – 30 minutes removal and 30 minutes installation.

Several roof hatches for the driver, commander and three hatches for the fighting compartment as well as a hydraulically operated rear ramp with a manually operated emergency door not only offer a wide range of options for getting on and off, but also the option of conducting firefights via the hatch.

The placement of Rotzler's internal capstan self-recovery threads with the option of pulling forwards or backwards at the upper left corner of the rear of the vehicle or the upper right side of the vehicle front is particularly well thought out. Once "properly" stuck, the vehicle crew does not have to first dig out the winch and possible attachment points in order to be able to recover the Pandur.

Balanced "Iron Triangle"
Mobility, protection and effectiveness are the essential parameters that determine the performance of military vehicles. Basically, these parameters influence each other. Higher protection usually requires more armor or other protective measures, which in turn results in a higher weight and a larger volume and thus has a significant influence on the mobility of the vehicle. Protective measures are also important. Weight reserves can therefore no longer be used for the parameter effect (e.g. weapon systems or payload/combat volume). The interaction of these mutually influencing factors is referred to as the "Iron Triangle".


With the Pandur Evolution 6×6, GDELS seems to have succeeded in making the “iron triangle” particularly balanced. The vehicle has a comparatively high level of protection for its weight class (14.5 t). For comparison: In the lighter configuration (16 t), the Patria 6×6 CAVS only achieves a level of protection in accordance with STANAG 4569 Level 2 ballistic and mine/IED. At the same time, the Pandur is around 40 centimeters narrower and 20 to 30 centimeters lower than other 6×6 wheeled armored vehicles, such as the latest version of the Fuchs armored transport vehicle or the aforementioned Patria vehicle. In conjunction with a power-to-weight ratio of 17.6 kW/t, which has also not been achieved so far, the technical parameters of the vehicle not only lead to particularly high tactical mobility (off-road capability, maneuverability in densely built-up urban structures or regions with only weak infrastructure), they also lead to a particularly high strategic mobility. Because the Evolution is suitable for being transported as an internal load in a C-130 transport aircraft – the most widespread transport aircraft in the world. To do this, however, the weapon station must be removed.


In addition to the three-person crew, the Pandur Evolution armored personnel carrier variant has space for eight fully equipped infantrymen and a lavish group outfit. (Photo: GDELS)

Technically, an amphibious mobility of the Pandur Evolution is also feasible. Even though neither the Austrian nor the US version of the vehicle is buoyant, GDELS says it could also offer the Pandur Evolution 6×6 in a buoyant version. According to GDELS, all the necessary technologies and know-how are available in the company and amphibious Pandours (8×8) have been in use in the Czech Republic and Portugal for some time. The drive components, which are protected in the vehicle hull, offer buoyancy advantages for the vehicle. GDELS engineers point out that this vehicle design provides the basis for making even more heavily armored vehicles buoyant.

At the same time, the vehicle is able to accommodate a crew of three and up to eight other fully equipped infantrymen in the combat area. Which was probably one of the reasons why the US special forces chose exactly this vehicle. Due to the compact design and small width of the vehicle, this can of course only be achieved in a narrow, interlocking seat configuration - one of the knees of the other person is between the legs of the person sitting opposite.


The combat compartment configuration of the Pandur Evolution 6×6. (Graphic: GDELS)

Possible options. The Pandur Evolution 6×6 is currently being manufactured in two different variants – armored personnel carriers for the German army and an unspecified version as the Armored Ground Mobility System for the US armed forces.


Thanks to a rail system integrated in the combat area, the armored personnel carrier variant of the Pandur can also be converted in the field using a conversion kit to a CASEVAC variant if necessary, so that the wounded can be rescued from the battlefield under armored protection. (Photo: GDELS)

The manufacturer refers to the high modularity of the Pandur, which is already being used at user level. Thanks to a rail system integrated in the combat area, the Jägertruppe can, if necessary, also convert individual vehicles in the field using a conversion kit to a CASEVAC variant in order to be able to rescue wounded people from the battlefield under armor protection. For this purpose, a wounded stretcher for a lying patient is scaffolded in the left part of the combat area. The right three seats remain unaffected.

The concept of the monocoque hull is designed in such a way that a complete family of wheeled vehicles can be represented on the same platform. According to GDELS, the platform offers an excellent basis for further variants of combat vehicles due to its high payload. Variants would be conceivable as command and reconnaissance vehicles - also with an unmanned 30 mm machine gun turret - as well as anti-aircraft vehicles (radar or weapon carriers), engineering vehicles, but also 120 mm mortar carriers or tank destroyers. The interior can be configured modularly and designed for mission-specific requirements. For example, depending on the requirements, the fuel tanks can be integrated inside the tub, or external and self-sealing tanks can also be installed. This concept significantly increases the storage volume in the vehicle.

Due to its design concept, the Pandur platform is suitable for a wide range of different vehicle variants. (Graphic: GDELS)

All in all, the Pandur Evolution 6×6 also offers a possible alternative to the regeneration of armored transport vehicles introduced by the Bundeswehr in terms of its capabilities, the possible variety of variants and the pricing, which could be available in the near future.


https://esut.de/en/2022/08/fachbeitraege/ruestung/36452/pandur-evolution-6x6-taktische-und-strategische-mobilitaet-der-extraklasse/
« Última modificação: Outubro 04, 2022, 07:52:24 am por tenente »
Quando um Povo/Governo não Respeita as Suas FFAA, Não Respeita a Sua História nem se Respeita a Si Próprio  !!
 
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Re: Pandur II
« Responder #2484 em: Outubro 05, 2022, 10:00:20 am »
Acho que andando um pouco para trás (uns anos bons  :mrgreen:  ) encontramos esta discussão, quando se considerava a necessidade de sistemas deste tipo. Aliás, a sua aquisição chegou a fazer parte dos planos.

Tanto como me recordo (estou a falar de memória) o primeiro a cair foi o Pandur-2 com torre equipada com uma peça de 105mm. Chegou a falar-se de 33 unidades, mas havia vários problemas. A compra dos Leopard-2 com peça de 120mm tinha introduzido este calibre e manter 120mm e 105mm em pequenas quantidades era mais uma chatice logística, além de que a torre custava várias vezes o resto (não me lembro quanto). Já na altura se previa retirar os M-60A3.

https://twitter.com/Ninja998998/status/1065884657655394310/photo/2

A opção de morteiro pesado era para um sistema de Israel, o Soltam.
https://www.operacional.pt/vbr-8x8-tp-pandur-ii-127/

As viaturas Pandur, acabaram por ser um substituto não só das Chaimites, mas dos camiões Berliet de transporte de pessoal.
Ou seja, são uma espécie de MRAP.

De todo o programa relativo às Pandur com capacidade militar, a única coisa que foi comprada foram as Pandur com canhão de 30mm e foram recebidas algumas com sistema anti-carro.

Neste como noutros casos, as constantes crises e a falta de recursos, levaram ao atraso.
É muito mais fácil enganar uma pessoa, que explicar-lhe que foi enganada ...
 

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Re: Pandur II
« Responder #2485 em: Outubro 05, 2022, 10:52:44 am »


Aos 40 minutos...

Até assusta a "imagem / foto inicial"... :mrgreen:
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
 
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Re: Pandur II
« Responder #2486 em: Outubro 05, 2022, 11:14:23 am »


Aos 40 minutos...

Até assusta a "imagem / foto inicial"... :mrgreen:

EXCELENTE !!!!!
Quando um Povo/Governo não Respeita as Suas FFAA, Não Respeita a Sua História nem se Respeita a Si Próprio  !!
 

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Re: Pandur II
« Responder #2487 em: Outubro 05, 2022, 11:57:43 am »
O Homem está a falar para toino/as e moinantes, que tem é mais experiencia em usar da posição para privilégios.
Tanta "compreensão" dos senhores deputados até dá vomito. 
Continua o desfalque e deixar cair a FA, tal como outras Instituições em prol de movimentar dinheiro "não se sabe para onde", como diz o General(claro que se sabe).
Só não tem vergonha nos gastos com corrupção e mentiras de deputados e membros dos governos, para seu usufruo e de outros pândegos amigos bem colocados 
« Última modificação: Outubro 05, 2022, 11:58:55 am por Pescador »
 
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Re: Pandur II
« Responder #2488 em: Outubro 05, 2022, 08:50:11 pm »
Depois do general de ter tocado no assunto das carências de equipamentos nas Pandur, que também acontece nos Vantac, seja AC, AA e PMorteiros, bateu o assunto na trave e ressaltou para a conversa de Tancos em obrigar de julgar ali, ou medir ali as culpas.
Estes pantomineiros nem o rabo encontram para o limpar, mas para colocarem exigências nos outros são uns experts.

Entretanto serve também para adiar decisões como as mencionadas. É essa a estratégia dos assuntos sem fim
 
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Re: Pandur II
« Responder #2489 em: Outubro 06, 2022, 12:26:53 pm »
Enfim ... Basicamente aquilo que aqui tem sido dito e comentado.

Do que ouvi, no entanto, acredito haver uma imprecisão por parte do general, relativa às viaturas que comprámos ou alugámos de emergência aos espanhóis para enviar para o Afeganistão.

As viaturas VAMTAC da Urovesa foram adquiridas de emergência porque eram blindadas e preparadas para resistir a IED's
No atentado de que uma viatura portuguesa foi alvo, morreu um dos militares.
Eu lembro-me de termos discutido aqui o caso, e verificado que, a viatura VAMTAC fez o que tinha que fazer. A proteção blindada protegeu a guarnição da viatura.
A vítima mortal, não levava cinto de segurança (e era suposto leva-lo), e foi projetada contra o teto, tendo partido o pescoço.

Não é portanto este, um exemplo do desleixo, muito pelo contrário.
É muito mais fácil enganar uma pessoa, que explicar-lhe que foi enganada ...