Enviado por: Ria em Outubro 06, 2004, 11:15:19 pm
What are the Portuguese considered to be in regards to race "names"? My mom says white, but several people I've talked to have refused to believe that's true. I read in a book once that Portugal is considered the least Latin of the Latin countries.
My school is having a Hispanic Food Festival tomorrow, and there was an article about it in the school newspaper. It talked about the Hispanic countries, and I noticed that they had mentioned Brazil! I did NOT know Brazil was considered a Hispanic country. I had always heard the word Hispanic was for Spanish-speaking countries, and we all know the official language of Brasil is Portuguese. So really, would Portugal be considered "Hispanic"? I didn't think so before, but it's always been a question in the back of my mind. Or are Portuguese people considered "white"?
Enviado por: fgomes em Outubro 06, 2004, 11:57:59 pm
Enviado por: Ria em Outubro 07, 2004, 12:08:17 am
Enviado por: JNSA em Outubro 07, 2004, 12:38:40 am
- we are definitely not hispanic. Hispania is a name attributed to two different concepts - to a part of the Iberian Peninsula (the other part being Lusitania); or to the entire Peninsula. This use is not correct, and it is a way of defending the idea of a "Greater Spain", which includes Portugal. So, you should only use the word Hispanic when refering to Spanish people, or Spanish speaking countries in South America i.e. Venezuela, Argentina, etc.
- we are white (but of a darker shade... :lol: ), in which concerns the color of our skin (as far as I know, latino is not a colour... :wink: )
- we are Latinos, as this is a term which includes people from countries that have been directly influenced by the Roman Empire, and which speak a language derived from Latin, i.e. Portugal, Spain, Italy, etc... You can also include in this group the south american countries, as they speak Portuguese or Spanish.
Citação de: "Ria"
My mom says white, but several people I've talked to have refused to believe that's true.
I would like to know what is their definition of white (maybe they were thinking "Caucasian", which is a term we don't usually use in Europe)...
Citação de: "Ria"
I read in a book once that Portugal is considered the least Latin of the Latin countries.
That's totally wrong... I would say that, along with the people from the South of Italy, we are the most Latin ones...
(that's in term of personality).I hope this helps a bit...
Enviado por: emarques em Outubro 07, 2004, 01:29:34 am
Anyway, it's somewhat harder for us to answer that question, because the distinctions you would use in the USA are different from the european ones. Portuguese are considered to be latin. Like Spanish, French, Italians, Romanians... But south americans might not exactly fit the european definition of latin, they would be latin-americans. :mrgreen:
Enviado por: Ria em Outubro 07, 2004, 02:40:46 am
Enviado por: papatango em Outubro 07, 2004, 03:16:59 am
Since the time of the Romans, that they (the Romans) call Hispania to the Iberian peninsula. Actually, they also called it Iberia, and in some cases they referred to the peninsula as Lusitania, which was in some occasions the most important of it’s constituent parts, at least from a military point of view.
Now, what’s a “Hispanic” ?
Technically, it would be somebody coming from the place called Hispania, and Hispania was in fact the whole Iberian peninsula, and according to some historians, even included the area of north Africa correspondent today to northern Morocco.
The XXth century concept of Hispanic, is created in the United States, and has nothing to do with the original concept of Hispanic (from the roman point of view, and from a logical point of view)
Today, Hispanic, in the United States, means somebody from South or Central America and also from Spain, a country which took the name “Spain” - which was originally a geographical denomination - and transformed it in the name of a country (Today’s kingdom of Spain).
Like if somebody took the name Texas and decided that the whole United States would be called Texas.
Considering this, therefore, according to the US denomination, the Portuguese couldn’t be Hispanic, because Hispanic is a concept, where the Portuguese just wouldn’t fit.
Are Portuguese Latin?
Yes, Portuguese are Latin, because the area correspondent to Portugal was occupied for centuries by the Roman Empire.
Are the Portuguese less Latin than other Latin peoples?
The answer is a definitive YES.
The reason has to do with History and Geography. The Romans actually did not need to come to the western part of Iberia (it was the end of the world at the time). As a result, there was a less considerable intervention of the Latin culture.
At the same time, the peoples living in the western Iberia, were the ones with the most clear Celtic characteristics.
After the fall of the roman empire, again, the Iberian Peninsula was invaded. The first to come were the Sweves, which came from the Baltic, and settled in the northwest of Iberia, again stressing the non-latin characteristics of the western Iberians. The less Romanized, most “Celticized” areas are the ones that are chosen by the Sweves to settle. The Sweves are (around 150 years later) defeated by another Germanic people, the Visigoths (Goths from the West). All this come to an end with the Muslim invasions, but, again, the Muslim influence in the western part of Iberia was minimum.
Therefore, there are a number of reasons to say that the Portuguese (and Galicians, which are in northern Spain) are actually the less Latin of all Latin peoples.
To stress that, you should also remember something. The Latin culture is a culture influenced by the Mediterranean basin. As you know, Portugal is not a Mediterranean nation.
It is also important to stress, that the Celtic and Germanic cultures were the under developed ones. Nobody wanted to be seen as coming from the north. The culture, science, and everything that was good and of importance, came from the Latin culture and later from the Arab culture. So, the “less Latin” characteristics tended to fade away.
While the Portuguese language is in fact a Romance / Latin language there are ethnic reasons to support that the Portuguese people are indeed the less Latin of all the Latin peoples, in the same way that they are not Mediterranean, although inevitably there were influences from the Mediterranean cultures.
Hope to have been of some help.
Regards
Enviado por: Spectral em Outubro 07, 2004, 03:49:00 pm
Why do they feel such a need to categorize people into dark, brown or yellow ?
But, anyway, as far as I know how the americans use the term "Caucasian", we would fit right into it.
And, papatango , I would like you to hear more of you about the
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Are the Portuguese less Latin than other Latin peoples?
The answer is a definitive YES.
If we take in account the french or the belgian, I have some doubts that we are the least latin ( IIRC our language is one of the closer to the original latin). And I do not know any signs that the romanization was less influential here. Also about the pre-roman bit, I always thought that the celts mixed with the originary iberian people, when they arrived at the peninsula (thus the Gauls et al would be the most "celt", if such thing exists), being called, in "good old portuguese" :wink:
Rgds
Enviado por: P44 em Outubro 07, 2004, 04:13:43 pm
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Besides, white and latin aren't mutually exclusive. Latin isn't a "race", just a language group, and to some extent a culture. The concept of a "latin" race is very much american. So, portuguese are white latins. Like the spanish are gypsy latins, and people from Lisboa are berber latins.
OK, this is a private joke, Ria, for sure you will not understand...it comes from the rivalries (started by the poor undercivilised people from porto) :mrgreen:, called "bimbos latinos pre neanderthalensis" :oops:
Hope to Assist, Ria!!!!! :new_argue:
:G-beer2:
Enviado por: P44 em Outubro 07, 2004, 04:21:26 pm
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Mas por que carga de água é que, depois de várias tentativas, tive que desistir de submeter a minha resposta anterior? Bolas! "The document contains no data", grrr.
Because in porto they write in big pieces of rock and then try to squezze them into the floppy of a PC, a thing no normal human being would do...
:twisted: 8)
Enviado por: papatango em Outubro 07, 2004, 05:01:08 pm
1 – Belgian
They have latin influences, especially in which concerns language, but they are what remains from the mixture between the Celts, and the Goths which have invaded Gaul. Their Latin heritage comes from the language, but many of their uses and ancestral characteristics are actually not Latin.
2 – French
Same thing, although here we must stress that France is another “invented nation”. Southern France doesn’t have much to do with Northern France. Brittany, or Bretagne, being an example.
In France, a strong centralizes state, starting in the 15th century resulted in a mixed stock, which only common thread was their ancestral connection with Rome and the Latin language. But the influences of the Romans in France were huge. Gaul was rich and, unlike western Iberia, it was in the centre of all routes, coming from Rome to Hispania, or to Britannia, thus the Roman influence grew stronger.
= = =
The Romans were not at all interested in the western part of Iberia.
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv39%2Fpapatango%2Fibr_2ac.jpg&hash=e2649ad091fa1ee2fabefb1fc96b4017)
This is a map of pre-roman Iberia, stressing that there were in fact Celts, Celt-iberian and Iberian peoples. They are different, and although there were connections between the various peoples, it is also true that archaeology shows that these peoples have always been extremely independent from each other. Pottery from the Iberians is identifiable from the Celts, and of course there are the Lusitanian which used Celt implements, but for some reason seemed to still use bronze, while other Celts used iron, leading to the conclusion that Lusitanian were not Iberian, were not Celtiberian, and were only partially Celtic.
Remember that the name Iberia was given by the Romans to identify the known coast of the Mediterranean. It was the land of the Iberians, but when Iberia was given a name, Romans had knowledge of Iberia, only from their contacts with the eastern part of the peninsula, in which is today the Spanish Mediterranean coast.
The rest was known as Iberia, but it was not inhabited by Iberians.
The Lusitanian in century II and I BC started attacking the Romans, and supported the Carthaginian against Rome, during the Punic wars (between Rome and Carthage). Rome’s revenge and pay back time came swiftly, but it took a long time to subdue western Iberia.
All this characteristics, resulted in a lesser influence of the roman culture, although such culture did impose itself, that is undeniable. Considering this, and considering that the Roman influence in northwest Iberia was less strong, that the Sweves took western Iberia and stressed that influence, and that the muslim influence was far shorter than in other regions, Portuguese and Galician are definitively amont the less Latin of Latin peoples. Actually, I have some doubts that French can apply as Latin at all. (Their tendency to surrender, you know) …
Regards
Enviado por: emarques em Outubro 07, 2004, 05:19:11 pm
Citação de: "P44"
emarques wrote:OK, this is a private joke, Ria, for sure you will not understand...it comes from the rivalries (started by the poor undercivilised people from porto)
(...)
(and now I must run, I see emarques running in my direction, with a big rock in his hand, and mumblimg something not quite understandable...that's right, they even speak an ancient tong...not understood by the (average) mankind...) ;)
Só que... não sou do Porto (cidade), nem sequer do Douro Litoral, e sou benfiquista. :mrgreen:
Enviado por: Luso em Outubro 07, 2004, 05:59:45 pm
Enviado por: papatango em Outubro 07, 2004, 06:14:53 pm
Aliás a região da actual Odemira, também era ?Conicense? (Não sei qual o nome da terra dos Conios), não era só o Algarve.
Aliás, devo também dizer que há uma parte da terra do povo cónio, que está na actual Castela.
Acho mesmo que devemos pensar em, depois de libertar Olivença, marchar sobre a antiga (substituir por terra dos cónios, que eu não sei qual é) .
É inadmissivel, que a (terra dos cónios) Ocidental esteja sob o jugo castelhano.
Portanto, marchemos sobre a (terra dos cónios), para libertar a (terra dos cónios) da ocupação castelhana.
:Cavaleria1: :Cavaleria1:
Cumprimentos
Enviado por: JNSA em Outubro 07, 2004, 06:23:48 pm
Citação de: "papatango"
Depois de analisar os comentarios do Luso, devo dizer que estou de acordo.
Aliás a região da actual Odemira, também era ?Conicense? (Não sei qual o nome da terra dos Conios), não era só o Algarve.
Aliás, devo também dizer que há uma parte da terra do povo cónio, que está na actual Castela.
Acho mesmo que devemos pensar em, depois de libertar Olivença, marchar sobre a antiga (substituir por terra dos cónios, que eu não sei qual é) .
É inadmissivel, que a (terra dos cónios) Ocidental esteja sob o jugo castelhano.
Portanto, marchemos sobre a (terra dos cónios), para libertar a (terra dos cónios) da ocupação castelhana.
:Cavaleria1: :Cavaleria1: :wink:
----------
Mas Papatango, sinceramente não me parece que sejamos dos menos Latinos entre os Latinos.
É certo que outros povos sentiram mais fortemente a influência romana, mas em termos de personalidade, à poucos que sejam mais latinos do que nós...
Enviado por: JNSA em Outubro 07, 2004, 06:26:59 pm
Citação de: "P44"
Actually, we here in Lisbon tend to look at porto, "affectionaly", as our last Overseas Colony, and would very willingly trade that bit of junk for OLIVENÇA, which is under spanish occupation (but that's another storyyyyy)
P44, you forgot about Madeira - they are getting ready to request their independence, creating the Theocratic Peoples Republic of Jardinistão... :wink:
Enviado por: emarques em Outubro 07, 2004, 08:21:44 pm
Enviado por: dremanu em Outubro 07, 2004, 09:22:21 pm
Citação de: "Ria"
:oops:Ok ok, so this may seem to be a ridiculously dumb question to you guys, but I have been wondering about this for forever, and have never received a straight answer.
What are the Portuguese considered to be in regards to race "names"? My mom says white, but several people I've talked to have refused to believe that's true. I read in a book once that Portugal is considered the least Latin of the Latin countries.
My school is having a Hispanic Food Festival tomorrow, and there was an article about it in the school newspaper. It talked about the Hispanic countries, and I noticed that they had mentioned Brazil! I did NOT know Brazil was considered a Hispanic country. I had always heard the word Hispanic was for Spanish-speaking countries, and we all know the official language of Brasil is Portuguese. So really, would Portugal be considered "Hispanic"? I didn't think so before, but it's always been a question in the back of my mind. Or are Portuguese people considered "white"?
Ria:
We are most definitely NOT Hispanic...and the majority of us, are most definitely CAUCASIAN WHITE EUROPEAN people. We're not some "pure" race (if such a thing exists), but we have a commonality of genes that are found throughout Western Europe. Spanish people from Spain, are also not Hispanics, they are like the Portuguese, European Caucasians.
Hispanics, as understood within the US race classification system, are those people that came from Mexico, Central America, and Spanish Speaking South America, and that are of Amerindian descent and/or mixed European/Amerindian ancestry.
As for Latinos, this would include all the people that share a language that is a derivative of the Latin language, and cultural influences from the Roman empire, the Catholic Church, and I guess the Napoleonic code of law. However, I would not consider Latin a race, or a culture, is just a way to identify a group of different peoples that share some common elements. Northen people, Germans/Swedes/Norwegians/Anglos, call themselves Anglo-Saxons, to distinguish their culture and linguistic influences from the Latin influences, although they have a lot of the same influences in their cultures, and vice-versa.
Here's an interesting map for everyone to take a look at:
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.1asphost.com%2Fberschneider%2FHaplogroups.jpg&hash=69a6487ddd84cf9a53e49dc00aab97dc)
Enviado por: Luso em Outubro 08, 2004, 09:53:11 am
"Hum...
Defender... os conieiros...
Estranho. Muito estranho.
Enviado por: P44 em Outubro 08, 2004, 10:58:57 am
Citação de: "Luso"
"Eu apoio já a criação do Movimento dos Amigos dos Cónios... 8) :rir: :rir:
Enviado por: P44 em Outubro 08, 2004, 11:03:39 am
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Só que... não sou do Porto (cidade), nem sequer do Douro Litoral, e sou benfiquista.
In that case I forgive you...you can go in peace...
Enviado por: emarques em Outubro 08, 2004, 12:33:07 pm
Alguém pode esclarecer o significado desse tal mapa de "haplogrupos"?
Enviado por: papatango em Outubro 08, 2004, 03:06:19 pm
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esse mapa, com esse verde todo... O que é que quer dizer? Somos marcianos? Ou lagartos?:rir: :rir:
Já estou a ficar com a pele escamada e acho que as antenas já se notam na cabeça...
Enviado por: P44 em Outubro 08, 2004, 04:13:27 pm
Safa!
Safa!
Safa!
Enviado por: dremanu em Outubro 15, 2004, 12:24:13 am
Citação de: "emarques"
Dremanu, esse mapa, com esse verde todo... O que é que quer dizer? Somos marcianos? Ou lagartos? (NÂÂÂÂO!)
Alguém pode esclarecer o significado desse tal mapa de "haplogrupos"?
As cores é só uma forma de indicar os grupos de genes que os diferentes povos da europa compartilham entre si, e com outros povos fora da europa.
A cor verde indica o gene Hgl, que é principalmente associado com Celtas. O azul escuro com Germanico. O azul clarinho que se vê fortemente representado nos Bascos, é efetivamente o gene Basco. O cor-de-laranja claro, e o tom de azul mais escuro que se vê nalguma quantidade, creio que são os genes vindos dos Indo-Europeus. O negro é associado aos Beduínos, e o castanho aos Norte-Africanos.
Existe também um gene que é exclusivo Português, e que não se encontra em mais parte da Europa, ou do mundo. Aqui vai o texto do estudo que descreve esse facto.
===============================================
Relatedness among Basques, Portuguese, Spaniards, and Algerians studied by HLA allelic frequencies and haplotypes.
Arnaiz-Villena A, Martinez-Laso J, Gomez-Casado E, Diaz-Campos N, Santos P, Martinho A, Breda-Coimbra H.
Department of Immunology, Hospital 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Avda. Andalucia s/n. E-28041, Madrid, Spain.
HLA-A, -B, -DRB1, -DQA1, and DQB1 alleles were studied in Iberian and Algerian populations by serology and DNA sequence methodologies.
The genetic and cultural relatedness among Basques, Spaniards, and paleo-North Africans (Berbers or Tamazights) was established.
Portuguese people have also maintained a certain degree of cultural and ethnic-specific characteristics since ancient times. The results of the present HLA study in Portuguese populations show that they have features in common with Basques and Spaniards from Madrid: a high frequency of the HLA-haplotypes A29-B44-DR7 (ancient western Europeans), A2-B7-DR15 (ancient Europeans and paleo-North Africans), and A1-B8-DR3 (Europeans) are found as common characteristics.
Portuguese and Basques do not show the Mediterranean A33-B14-DR1 haplotype, suggesting a lower admixture with Mediterraneans; Spaniards and Algerians do have this haplotype in a relatively high frequency, indicating a more extensive Mediterranean genetic influence. The paleo-North African haplotype A30-B18-DR3 present in Basques, Algerians, and Spaniards is not found in Portuguese either.
The Portuguese have a characteristic unique among world populations: a high frequency of HLA-A25-B18-DR15 and A26-B38-DR13, which may reflect a still detectable founder effect coming from ancient Portuguese, i.e., oestrimnios and conios; Basques and Algerians also show specific haplotypes, A11-B27-DR1 and A2-B35-DR11, respectively, probably showing a relatively lower degree of admixture.
A neighbor-joining dendrogram place Basques, Portuguese, Spaniards, and Algerians closer to each other and more separated from other populations. Genetic, cultural, geological, and linguistic evidence also supports the hypothesis that people coming from a fertile Saharan area emigrated towards the north (southern Europe, Mesopotamia, the Mediterranean Islands, and the North African coast) when the climate changed drastically to hotter and drier ca 10 000 years B.C.
Enviado por: dremanu em Outubro 15, 2004, 12:27:55 am
===============================================
We are not Celts at all but Galicians
BRIAN DONNELLY September 10 2004
CELTIC nations such as Scotland and Ireland have more in common with the Portuguese and Spanish than with the Celts of central Europe, according to a new academic report.Historians have long believed that the British Isles were swamped by a massive invasion of Iron Age Celts from central Europe around 500BC.However, geneticists at Trinity College in Dublin now claim that the Scots and Irish have more in common with the people of north-western Spain.
Dr Daniel Bradley, genetics lecturer at Trinity College, said a new study into Celtic origins revealed close affinities with the people of Galicia.He said: "It's well-known that there are cultural relations between the areas but now this shows there is much more. We think the links are much older than that of the Iron Age because it also shows affinities with the Basque region, which isn't a Celtic region."He added: "The links point towards other Celtic nations, in particular Scotland, but they also point to Spain.
"Historians believed the Celts, originally Indo-European, invaded the Atlantic islands in a massive migration 2500 years ago.But using DNA samples from people living in Celtic nations and other parts of Europe, geneticists at the university have drawn new parallels.Dr Bradley said it was possible migrants moved from the Iberian peninsula to Ireland as far back as 6000 years ago up until 3000 years ago."I don't agree with the idea of a massive Iron Age invasion that took over the Atlantic islands.
You can regard the ocean, rather than a barrier, as a communication route," Dr Bradley said.Archaeologists have also been questioning the links between the Celts of eastern France and southern Germany and the people of the British Isles and the new research appears to prove their theories.The Dublin study found that people in areas traditionally known as Celtic, such as Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Brittany and Cornwall, had strong links with each other and had more in common with people from the Iberian peninsula.
It also found people in Ireland have more in common with Scots than any other nation."What we would propose is that this commonality among the Atlantic facade is much older, 6000 years ago or earlier," Dr Bradley added.There are also close links between Scotland and Ireland dating back much further than the plantations of the 1600s when many Scots moved to Northern Ireland in search of fertile farming lands, the research showed.However, the researchers could not determine whether fair skin, freckles, red hair and fiery tempers truly are Celtic traits.
Stephen Oppenheimer, professor of clinical socio-medical sciences at Oxford, said that the Celts of western Scotland, Wales, Ireland and Cornwall were descended from an ancient people living on the Atlantic coast when Britain was still attached to mainland Europe, while the English were more closely related to the Germanic peoples of the interior.
He said: "The English are the odd ones out because they are the ones more linked to continental Europe. The Scots, the Irish, the Welsh and the Cornish are all very similar in their genetic pattern to the Basque."The study headed by Dr Bradley was published in the American Journal of Human Genetics.
Enviado por: Ria em Outubro 21, 2004, 12:25:36 am
Enviado por: emarques em Outubro 21, 2004, 02:04:41 am
Interessante essa das relações com os irlandeses. Vai-se a ver, e as lendas irlandesas que dizem que os primeiros humanos na Irlanda vinham da Hispania (Mil Espáine) são bastante verdadeiras.
Enviado por: J.Ricardo em Outubro 21, 2004, 02:25:45 pm
Enviado por: FinkenHeinle em Outubro 21, 2004, 08:52:11 pm
Citação de: "João Ricaro"
A minha implicancia toda em ser considerado latino, é que para os "arianos" dos EUA o termo latino e'igual a "cucaracha" (é assim que se escreve?). E cucaracha é pqp!!!
Pra mim, não há problema...
Se eles são alienados, nós vamos nos balizar pela opinião alienada deles, americanos??
Eu não! Eu sou Latino-Americano, sim, e com orgulho!!! E direi, para quem quer que seja em voz alta...
Enviado por: rjales em Outubro 22, 2004, 12:30:51 pm
Chega aos EUA, é considerada "white-caucasian", mas para mim a gaja é latina.
O termo latino designa sobretudo uma cultura, e é bem mal empregado pelos americanos que querem assim categorisar uma parte de sua população. Acho que foi isto que quiz dizer João Ricardo.
Cumprimentos
Enviado por: P44 em Outubro 22, 2004, 01:26:10 pm
Citação de: "João Ricardo"
A minha implicancia toda em ser considerado latino, é que para os "arianos" dos EUA o termo latino e'igual a "cucaracha" (é assim que se escreve?). E cucaracha é pqp!!!
Mas nos EUA existem "arianos" :mrgreen:
Que eu saiba, os ÚNICOS verdadeiros "americanos", são os Índios que ainda não foram chacinados, pelos grandes "lideres do mundo"
Enviado por: J.Ricardo em Outubro 22, 2004, 09:49:09 pm
Então quando um moçambicano negro chegar nos EUA como ele será classificado? Como um latino ou um africano? E para colocar mais lenha na foqueira, a esposa do candidato a presidente dos EUA John Kerry é latina ou africana? Ou "white-caucasian"? Ou calcaisana-latina-africana? Ou "viajando mais ainda na maionese", ela é afro-americana?
Enviado por: P44 em Outubro 25, 2004, 09:59:36 am
Citação de: "João Ricardo"
Isso mesmo Rjales, eles querem definir o termo latino como uma raça, o que não é, latino é uma pessoa nascida em um país que sofreu influência da cultura latina, ou seja, brasileiro, chileno, cubano, argentino, português e até um angolano, por que não? Afinal estes também sofreram um culturalização latina, tá certo, foi uma cultura imposta a ferro e fogo, mas isso é outra história...
Então quando um moçambicano negro chegar nos EUA como ele será classificado? Como um latino ou um africano? E para colocar mais lenha na foqueira, a esposa do candidato a presidente dos EUA John Kerry é latina ou africana? Ou "white-caucasian"? Ou calcaisana-latina-africana? Ou "viajando mais ainda na maionese", ela é afro-americana? :)
Afro-Americana-Albina...
Enviado por: papatango em Dezembro 23, 2005, 10:56:50 am
"Sobre a península pós romana"
http://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2822&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
A questão étnica/hispanic etc... deve naturalmente ser continuada aqui.
Cumprimentos
Enviado por: JoseMFernandes em Dezembro 23, 2005, 11:45:44 am
Cumprimentos
Enviado por: dremanu em Janeiro 16, 2006, 10:14:36 pm
Iberia: Population genetics, anthropology, and linguistics
Arnaiz-Villena, Antonio
Abstract Basques, Portuguese, Spaniards, and Algerians have been studied for HLA and mitochondrial DNA markers, and the data analysis suggests that pre-Neolithic gene flow into Iberia came from ancient white North Africans (Hamites). The Basque language has also been used to translate the Iberian-Tartesian language and also Etruscan and Minoan Linear A. Physical anthropometry of Iberian Mesolithic and Neolithic skeletons does not support the demic replacement in Iberia of preexisting Mesolithic people by Neolithic people bearing new farming technologies from Europe and the Middle East. Also, the presence of cardial impressed pottery in western Mediterranean Europe and across the Maghreb (North Africa) coasts at the beginning of the Neolithic provides good evidence of pre-Neolithic circum-Mediterranean contacts by sea. In addition, predynastic Egyptian El-Badari culture (4,500 years ago) is similar to southern Iberian Neolithic settlements with regard to pottery and animal domestication. Taking the genetic, linguistic, anthropological, and archeological evidence together with the documented Saharan area desiccation starting about 10,000 years ago, we believe that it is possible that a genetic and cultural pre-Neolithic flow coming from southern Mediterranean coasts existed toward northern Mediterranean areas, including at least Iberia and some Mediterranean islands. This model would substitute for the demic diffusion model put forward to explain Neolithic innovations in Western Europe.
KEY WORDS: HLA, mtDNA, IBERIA, BASQUES, PORTUGUESE, SPANIARDS, ALGERIANS, TAMAZIGHTS, GUANCHES, DEMIC DIFFUSION, ETRUSCANS, MINOANS
Iberian populations have been studied from genetic, anthropological, and linguistic points of view (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994; Jackes et al. 1997a; ArnaizVillena and Alonso-Garcia 1998). Basically, 2 emergent and different theories have been raised: ( 1 ) Ancient Iberian populations share a genetic and cultural background with Caucasoid paleo-North Africans and with other pre-Neolithic Mediterraneans. No peopling replacement is found in the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition. Basques belong to the paleo-Iberian stock, and their language was spoken by Iberians before the Roman invasion. (2) Ancient Iberians were mostly replaced in the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition by more culturally advanced farmers coming from the east into Iberia through the Pyrenees Mountains (demic diffusion model). No North African genetic background is considered.
Here, we put forth our own and others' results from 3 different disciplines (genetics, anthropology and archeology, and linguistics) to show that the demic diffusion model cannot be valid for Iberia.
Populations
The present-day Iberian genetic pool has been influenced by many major populations and immigrations, starting with the Paleolithic Iberian population, which already existed by 50,000 B.C. Later, this population painted the Altamira caves at about 20,000 B.c. North Africans entered the Iberian region between 20,000 and 8,000 B.C. They were followed by the Saharans, who arrived between 8,000 and 4,000 B.C., probably driven by the drastic climatic change to a hotter and drier environment. These Saharan changes have been documented by the Columbia space shuttle through an extensive collection of infrared photographs [analyzed by McCauley et al. (1982)]; now covered by the biggest desert on Earth, the area had once overflowed with rivers and lakes. This environment could have supported a large pre-Neolithic population in this vast area [8,600,000 km^sup 2^, an area bigger than the United States (Seely 1993)]. The inhabitants would have lived in a typical savanna (or in a more humid environment with the associated animals and vegetation). Recently, Kutzbach et al. (1996) lent support to these pre-Neolithic Saharan climatic changes by finding slight variations in the Earth's rotational axis, which led to a deviation of humid monsoons and to a lack of rain in the Sahara Desert.
There were also people coming from central Europe (also generically called Celt invasions), during the first millennium B.c.; nowadays, the importance of the Celtic population input in Spain during this first millennium is under hot debate, and there is a tendency to minimize it. In fact, only cultural and indirect historical references (but not direct evidence) of these invasions exist, particularly references by classical historians who usually cite secondhand and sometimes contradictory references. For example, Herodotus, Livy, Polybius, and Estrabon mention Keltoi or Keltiberians in nonprecise contexts (Burillo-Mozola 1998).
Islamic peoples (generically called Arabs), who had invaded northern Africa at the end of the 7th century, entered Spain at the beginning of the 8th century. They professed the Islamic religion, but the people coming into Spain were composed of a paleo-North African majority [Hamites or Berberspeaking-people, i.e., Tamazights (Kinder and Hilgemann 1970; Gonem 1996)]. Tamazights are now distributed over Morocco, Mauritania, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt (up to the Siwa Oasis). Nomadic Tamazights and Berber-speaking Tuaregs inhabit southern Algeria, southwest Libya, northern Niger, and Mali. At least 30 million people speak Berber dialects around and within the present-day Sahara Desert in the mentioned countries; in particular, about 30% of the population of Algeria and Morocco speak Berber. They are descendants of the pre-Neolithic Saharan people, who have remained in the mountains or desert relatively isolated from Arabic influence (Mockhtar 1990). The Berber component in urban centers (e.g., Algiers) may also be a majority now (Julien 1961; Rachid 1994; Brett and Fentress 1997).
Other invasions (see Table 1) were mostly military and/or cultural and did not have a significant bearing on the Iberian genetic pool.
Although the data shown in Table 1 refer to Spain, Portugal has had a parallel population increase and has approximately 10 million inhabitants at present. However, the degree of genetic similarity of the Portuguese to other ethnic groups of the Iberian Peninsula (Basques) and to Spaniards and paleoNorth Africans is not certain. Although Tartesian language and art are also found in southern Portugal (Figure 1), it is possible that the Paleolithic tribes that populated Portugal were distinct from other Iberians. These are the Oestrimnios (northern Portugal) and Cinetes or Conios (southern Portugal). The Paleolithic peoples were also invaded by North Africans (see Table 1), and their degree of relatedness to Tartesians (Ramos-Oliveira 1971a) is uncertain. Invasions of the ancient Portuguese people by central Europeans (Celts) during the first millennium B.C. could have taken place and given rise to the Lusitanians, who were first defined as the more or less unified western Iberian warriors who fought against the Roman invaders (Ramos-Oliveira 197 la).
The population of Africa in pre-Neolithic times (7,000-3,000 B.C.) has been classified into 5 main ethnic groups: (1) Hamites (Hamite-speaking people) of the Mediterranean and Red Sea coasts; they were white people who have been further subdivided into Berbers and Egyptians (n = 100,000) and white-black Ethiopians (n = 100,000); (2) blacks of the Guinea Gulf (n = 250,000); (3) black Nilo-Saharans (n = 250,000), who inhabit the present-day Sahara Desert and Nilo River; (4) black Pygmies of the southwestern African coast (n = 200,000); and (5) black Bushmen of the southern and southeastern African coasts (n = 350,000) (Figure 2A) (McEvedy and Jones 1978). In pharaonic Africa (3,000 B.C.) population numbers had suffered drastic changes. Agricultural Egypt had 1 million people and the rest of Africa (nonagricultural hunters) had 1.2 million altogether. By A.D. 400 blacks from the Guinea Gulf had overwhelmed central and southern Africa, reduced the number of Bushmen, and almost eliminated Pygmies (Figure 2B) (McEvedy and Jones 1978).
Drastic climatic changes had dried northern Africa by around 8,0004,000 B.C. The forest line moved south toward the equator from about the 16th parallel by 3,000 B.C. (Figure 2C) (Bodmer and Cavalli-Sforza 1976). By then, the Sahara Desert had similar characteristics to the present-day Sahara, and strong migrations toward the north probably sent people to the Iberian Peninsula and Mediterranean and Canary Islands; the first Iberians and Canary Islands Guanche may in part come from these displaced paleoNorth African inhabitants (Hamite Berbers) or may be closely related (Martinez-Laso et al. 1995).
The population of Algeria has followed the general Maghreb demographic movements (McEvedy and Jones 1978). In Neolithic times a scattering of Berber people (a few hundred thousand) existed there. However, they did not remain stuck at a simple Neolithic level, and probably, like other Mediterraneans, were evolving through the Bronze and Iron ages (Brett and Fentress 1997). By 1,000 B.C. Phoenicians from Lebanon set up Carthage (Tunisia) and were later overthrown by the Romans in 146 B.C. At this time there were 100,000 Phoenicians and 500,000 Berbers in Tunisia plus another 2.5 million Berbers in the rest of North Africa. By A.D. 200 Algeria had no more than 2 million people. During the 7th century, Arabs invaded Algeria and mixed with Berbers, who were the majority (Julien 1961); some researchers postulate that most of the modern Saharan and Maghreb peoples are not Arabs but Berbers who speak Arabic and have a Berber genetic background (Rachid 1994). Demographically, Algeria (and Maghreb) has been stable until recently, when France and Spain left their colonies. The Algerian population was 9 million in 1950 and is more than 25 million at present.
Genetics
One of the recurrent problems of Spanish ethnography is the still unresolved origin of the Basques; although some researchers postulate that the Basques are a relative isolate of the ancient original Iberian population (Humboldt 1921; Michelena 1964), others put forward the hypothesis that Basques came from afar (the Caucasus) (Laffon 1993). However, these theories are mostly based on linguistic data. In addition, studies of blood groups (Mourant 1947) and serological HLA markers (Dausset et al. 1972; Mouzon et al. 1979; Regueiro and Arnaiz-Villena 1988) were done in the past decades. A high phenotypic frequency of Rh-negative types and a low frequency of the B blood group were regarded as distinctive of Basque populations (Mourant 1947); however, these frequencies have been found to be a general characteristic of other neighboring Western European populations, as detailed by Roychoudhury and Nei (1988). Reported Rh-negative gene frequencies (cde) are 0.44 for Spanish Basques, 0.54 for Portuguese, 0.43 for the Isle of Man, 0.38 for Spaniards, 0.41 for French, 0.42 for Irish, and 0.39 for English; reported B frequencies are 0.03 for Basques, 0.05 for Portuguese, 0.07 for Irish, 0.06 for Spaniards, 0.06 for French, and 0.06 for English. Thus frequencies of Basque Rh-negative and B blood groups are not significantly different from the surrounding populations, although a distinctive effect might be expected because of the Basques' historical lack of substantial admixture with neighbors and invaders (Caro-Baroja 1981; Roman del Cerro 1993, pp. 33-34).
The HLA system is one of the most polymorphic genetic systems and is widely used to identify individuals (Tsuji et al.1992). HLA discriminating ability can also be used to single out populations; particular alleles appear only in particular populations (e.g., *A36 and *A43 in black Africans) or have high frequency in particular populations, and the strong linkage disequilibrium between HLA alleles at neighboring loci shows that certain combinations (HLA haplotypes) are characteristic of certain living populations. Thus HLA alleles are a unique tool to study the origins of relatively isolated groups because the characteristic HLA allele frequencies have not been completely diluted with time; less discrimination might be achieved if HLA allele frequencies were mixed for calculation with other less polymorphic allelic systems.
Similarly, HLA-A and HLA-B (Dausset and Colombani 1973) and HLA-DR (Imanishi, Wakisaka et al. 1992) allele frequencies have been used to individualize populations. Dendrograms have been constructed according to differences in HLA allele frequencies and the population genetic distances reported at the 11th International Histocompatibility Workshop (Imanishi, Wakisaka et al. 1992; Imanishi, Akaza et al,1992). The obtained ethnic group clusters (roughly, Europeans, Africans, Asians, and Australian Aborigines) fit well with the classical anthropologically defined ethnic groups. However, the analysis is still incomplete, and further analysis, including HLA-DR and HLADQ DNA genotypes and characteristic complete HLA haplotypes of different populations (Imanishi, Wakisaka et al. 1992), are necessary.
Others studies (Degos and Dausset 1974; Cambon-Mouzon et al. 1982) and our own previous research (Rodriguez-Cordoba et al. 1981; ArnaizVillena et al. 1981; Regueiro and Arnaiz-Villena 1988) have pointed out that the HLA A30-B18-DR3-BF*F,I haplotype was a marker for Basques, Sardinians, and Spaniards. Its frequency in other populations was significantly lower, except for white North Africans; this suggested a paleo-North African/ Iberian origin for part of the Basque gene pool (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1981). More recently, complete HLA data on Basques and Spaniards (MartinezLaso et al. 1995) have been analyzed by DNA indirect sequencing and compared for the first time with data from a North African population (Algerians) with at least a 70% Berber component (Julien 1951; Benmamar et al. 1993; Rachid 1994; Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1995). Basques were chosen at Hospital Nuestra Senora de Aranzazu (San Sebastian) from a group of unrelated healthy blood donors only if they had characteristic Basque surnames in the last 3 generations. Figure 3 shows the relatedness between Iberian, North African, European, and other populations (Martinez-Laso et al. 1995; ArnaizVillena et al. 1995, 1997) based on a neighbor-joining dendrogram constructed with the allele frequencies obtained by DNA typing and sequencing (HLA-DR and HLA-DQ DNA) and by HLA-A and HLA-B serology. The figure shows that Portuguese are close to Basques from San Sebastian, with a distance similar to that of Spaniards from Madrid (Figure 3). Algerians, Portuguese, and Basques also show that they are more related to one another than to other Europeans; it is remarkable that Iberians and Algerians cluster together with relatively high bootstraps, particularly in the case of Portuguese and Basques. This supports the conclusion that Iberians and Algerians are more closely related to each other than to other Europeans. The fairly long Basque and Sardinian branches may reflect the relative isolation that they have experienced among Europeans (Martinez-Laso et al. 1995); this tends to increase the frequency of certain alleles already present in the founder population (e.g., HLA A*30, B*18, DR*3). These results had been suggested by Imanishi, Wakisaka et al. (1992) and Imanishi, Akaza et al. (1992) using HLA-A and HLA-B alleles and fewer individuals. It was found that Iberians cluster closer to Africans than to Europeans: Middle Eastern and Maghreb (e.g., Algerians) populations were not included because of a lack of data. These results show that Europeans cluster together with the exception of Spaniards, Portuguese, Basques, and Sardinians, who cluster closer to African populations.
The HLA allele frequency studies have also included more specific HLA haplotype studies to which a possible origin may be assigned (Table 2).
HLA Haplotypes. The A *2-Cw*7-B*7-DRBI *1501-DQA1 *0102-DQB1 *0602 haplotype is common to French Basques (haplotype frequency, 0.036), Cornish (0.036), Austrians (0.026), and Britons (0.023) (Imanishi, Akaza et al. 1992) and does not appear in high frequency in northern Europeans, such as Scandinavians, or in other Mediterranean populations. This haplotype is mainly found in England, Spain, Portugal, and northern Africa.
The A*33-Cw*8-B*14-DRBI *0102-DQA*0101-DQB]*0501 haplotype shows the highest frequency in Armenians (0.031) and is also high in frequency or present in other Mediterranean European populations such as Sardinians (0.027), French (0.014), Greeks (0.011), and Italians (0.007) (Imanishi, Akaza et al. 1992). This haplotype does not appear in Portuguese and Basques and has a much lower frequency in northern European populations (Martinez-Laso et al. 1995). The fact that Armenians (and not Basques) bear this marker does not support a theory that Basques and Armenians are related and have a common descent. Armenians may have acquired this haplotype during their historical Middle East Mediterranean settlements in the Middle Ages (Martinez-Laso et al. 1995). Alternatively, this haplotype may be of Armenian origin.
The A *I-Cw*7-B*8-DRB1 *0301-DQA1 *0501-DQB1 *0201 haplotype frequency is similar in British (0.029) and Danish (0.034). Germans (0.048), Austrians (0.053), and Yugoslavians (0.077) show higher frequencies (Imanishi, Akaza et al. 1992). This haplotype may be of Indo-European-Celtic origin (Degos and Dausset 1974).
The A*30-Cw*5-B*18-DRBl *0301-DQA] *0501-DQBI *0201 haplotype is found in Sardinians (0.114) and French Basques (0.047) (Imanishi, Akaza et al. 1992). Its frequency is much lower or absent in other European populations. This haplotype was defined as Iberian/paleo-North African (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1981). Bouali and co-workers found this haplotype to be most frequent in Algerians; it was described as B*18-BF*Fl (ArnaizVillena et al. 1995).
The A*29-C*blank-B*44-DRBI *0701-DQA1 *020] haplotype is found at a frequency of 0.054 in Cornish but Danish, French, and Italians show lower frequencies (
The A*3-Cw*7-B*7-DRB1 *1501-DQA1*0102-DQB1 *0602 haplotype has been defined as a northern European haplotype (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1995) because of its high frequencies in Danish (0.036), Austrians (0.032), Czechs (0.025), and Yugoslavians (0.024) and also in French (0.018) and Italians (0.006) (Imanishi, Akaza et al. 1992).
The A*25-C*blank-B*18-DRB1 *1501-DQAI *0102-DQBI *0602 haplotype is present in the United States (0.009) and in Brazilians (0.007), probably because of Portuguese ancestors (Imanishi, Akaza et al. 1992).
The A*26-C*blank-B*38-DRBI *1301-DQAI*0103-DQBI *0603 haplotype has not been described in other populations (Imanishi, Akaza et al. 1992).
Portuguese populations have features in common with Basques and Spaniards from Madrid; high frequencies of the HLA haplotypes A *29-B*44DR*7 (ancient western Europeans), A*2-B*7-DR*15 (ancient Europeans and paleo-North Africans), and A*1-B*8-DR*3 (Europeans) are common characteristics. Portuguese and Basques do not show the Mediterranean A*33B*14-DR*1 haplotype, suggesting a lower admixture with Mediterraneans; Spaniards and Algerians do have this haplotype in a relatively high frequency, indicating a more extensive Mediterranean genetic influence. The paleoNorth African haplotype A*30-B*18-DR*3 present in Basques, Algerians, and Spaniards is not found in Portuguese either. The Portuguese have a characteristic HLA make-up among world populations: high frequencies of A *25B*18-DR*IS and A*26-B*38-DR*13, which may reflect a still detectable founder effect coming from ancient Portuguese (Oestrimnios and Conios). Basques and Algerians also show specific haplotypes, A*l-B*27-DR*l and A*2-B*35-DR*lI, respectively, probably showing a relatively lower degree of admixture and a founder effect.
A recent HLA study (Izaabel et al. 1998) in Moroccan Berbers supports our conclusion that paleo-North Africans are genetically closer to Spaniards than to other Europeans. In addition, Comas et al. (1998) studied the HLA profiles in a Basque population sample and stated that a common origin for Spaniards, Basques, and North Africans was not found. This conclusion was not based on the data: (1) Basque HLA frequencies and haplotypes do not significantly differ from previously published results (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1981; Imanishi, Wakisaka et al. 1992; Martinez-Laso et al. 1995; Izaabel et al. 1998). (2) When Comas et al. (1998) studied previously published data on Algerians [from Arnaiz-Villena et al. (1995)], only a partial analysis was done; Comas et al. (1998) presented a neighbor-joining tree from arbitrarily chosen populations (Figure 2), but our own data on Algerians are not included in the analysis of 18 worldwide populations (Comas et al. 1998, Figure 1) or with other populations in the principal components analysis (Comas et al. 1998, Figure 3); also, heterogeneous data from populations that were HLA typed at different degrees of allelism were inappropriately mixed.
In summary, HLA data from several different research groups support North African/Iberian/Basque relatedness: (1) Imanishi, Akaza et al. (1992) and Imanishi, Wakisaka et al. (1992) used results of 126 different ethnic groups studied by 186 laboratories distributed worldwide for the 1I th International Histocompatibility Workshop; (2) Arnaiz-Villena et al. (1981) found that Basques, Sardinians, and Spaniards from Madrid shared common HLA haplotypes with Berber populations; (3) these results have been further confirmed by studies of HLA genes by indirect DNA sequencing techniques (Martinez-Laso et al. 1995; Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1995, 1997; Clayton and Lonjou 1997); (4) a Moroccan-Swiss-French group has also found relatedness between Iberians and Moroccan Berbers (Izaabel et al. 1998).
On the other hand, mitochondrial DNA evidence (Corte-Real et al. 1996) shows that the genetic input of northern Africa to the Iberian Peninsula is as important as the gene flow from the rest of Europe. Also, recent mtDNA sequence variation analyses have revealed that a major Paleolithic population expansion from the Atlantic zone (southwestern Europe) may have occurred 10,000-15,000 years ago, after the last glacial maximum. An mtDNA marker for this expansion, haplogroup V, was identified and was observed only in northwestern Europe and North Africa. It reaches high frequencies in some Iberian populations and is also common among the Berbers of North Africa. Thus this distribution indicates that, in contrast to haplogroup H, haplogroup V did not originate in the Near East but in either Europe or North Africa (Richards et al. 1996; Torroni et al. 1998). Also, Pinto et al. (1996) observed that most of the female transmitted mitochondrial genes found at present in the Canary Islands population came from the Berber first Canary Islands population (Guanche) and that most of the paternally transmitted genes come from European conquerors. This fits with historical events: Most Guanche males were killed or sold in Valencia and Sevilla by Spanish conquerors during the 15th century; European males mixed thereafter with Guanche females. In addition, Y-chromosome polymorphisms also support a common origin for Basques and Sardinians (Santachiara-Benerecetti and Semino 1996), who may also share a paleo-North African origin (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1981) together with Etruscans and Minoans from Crete (Arnaiz-Villena and Alonso-Garcia 1998).
Physical Anthropology
Skeletal studies from Mesolithic and Neolithic samples have been extensively carried out by Meiklejohn et al. (1984), Lubell et al. (1994), Lalueza-Fox (1996), and Jackes et al. (1997a). Jackes et al. (1997a) analyzed the agricultural transition by using dental and skeletal variables obtained from partial data. They performed an exhaustive analysis of their own and other data on Mesolithic and Neolithic Iberian skeletal parameters. In particular, they analyzed skulls from skeletons labeled either male or female, because sexual dimorphism did not alter significantly across the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition. A scatter plot of 8 craniometric variables from 20 skeletons from Iberia (Spain: Majorca, Tarragona, Basque Country, Catalonia, Cantabria, Barcelona, Burgos, Castilla, Andalucia, Granada; Portugal; Eira, Pedrinha, Escoural, Melides, Cabezo da Aruda, Moita de Sehastiao) showed that there was no significant change in the studied variables between Neolithic and Mesolithic samples.
Both, Lalueza-Fox (1996) and Jackes et al. (1997a,b) agreed that stature is similar in Neolithic and Mesolithic Iberian skeletons. The statures are consistent with the observed trend of gradually decreasing stature in European populations from the upper Paleolithic through the Neolithic, with a subsequent stature increase after the Neolithic (Meiklejohn et al. 1984). Dental caries rates do not show a discontinuity either, and the observed reduction rate in the Neolithic shows complex dietary changes that started during the Mesolithic and continued into the Neolithic (Lubell et al. 1994).
Thus the demic diffusion model put forward by Clark (1965) and Renfrew (1973), which implies an important (or complete) replacement of the population, is not sustainable for Iberia, where no revolutionary way of life changes or physical anthropometry and diet differences were found. However, the Iberian diet began to change soon after 8,000 years B.P. (beginning of the Mesolithic) and has continued to change (Lubell et al. 1994). This dietary change has been gradual and does not coincide with the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition.
Linguistics and Conclusions
Languages in populations have been shown to correlate roughly with specific genetic markers in the respective population analysis (Cavalli-Sforza 1996; Santachiara-Benerecetti and Semino 1996). At a recent systematics meeting in Madrid (February 23-24, 1998, organized by J. Klein and A. Arnaiz-Villena), M. Nei recommended to L.L. Cavalli-Sforza the use of statistics for matching languages with populations defined by genetic markers. It is indeed an almost impossible task, because many languages have been lost or subsumed and most populations are far from being genetically well defined. Although language "steamrollers" (Diamond 1997) are clear in America because sound historical documentation is available, their existence in other parts of the world is doubtful, particularly in western Europe, where historical documents are not available. It has been calculated that about 60-80 million Amerindians died in the century following the European discovery of the Americas in 1492 (Dobbins 1993); also, cultures and languages were systematically destroyed and replaced by those of the invaders (Crawford 1998). In other words, that steamrollers erase languages and cultures in western Europe according to the classical demic diffusion model (Gimbutas 1963; Renfrew 1987) is difficult to sustain nowadays.
The demic diffusion model hypothesizes that Neolithic farmers who were coming from the Middle East were slowly reaching Mesolithic western Europe. First, there is no evidence of Neolithic replacement of people on the Iberian Peninsula. On the contrary, the suggested conformity of Iberian craniometric data to a demic diffusion model simply does not exist; Mesolithic and Neolithic bones show clear continuity (Jackes et al.1997b). Second, recent genetic data in North Africans, Spaniards, Basques, Portuguese, and Cretans (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1981, 1997, 1999; Corte-Real et al. 1996; Izaabel et al. 1998) support substantial gene flow from paleo-North African populations to Iberia. Also, common extended HLA haplotypes between presentday North African and Iberian populations, including Basques, exist (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1997; Izaabel et al. 1998).
Third, archeological studies at the mouth of the Guadalquivir River (La Marisrnilla, Sevilla) (Escacena-Carrasco 1996) showed that domesticated bovines and cats came with people from Africa about 5,000 years ago; in addition, the predynastic Egyptian El-Badari culture (4,500 years ago) is similar to many southern Iberian Neolithic settlements in pottery and animal domestication (Escacena-Carrasco 1996). Cardial impressed pottery is common and contemporary in western Europe and North African coasts. The coastal distribution of cardial impressed pottery in western Mediterranean Europe (Lewthwaite 1986) and across the Maghreb (Gilman 1992; Lubell et al.1992) provides good evidence of circum-Mediterranean contacts by sea. Both ElBadari and Iberian Neolithic people probably came from the drying Sahara area (McCauley et al. 1982). Indeed, Tassili cave paintings in the middle of the Sahara Desert (southeastern Argelia) show domesticated bovine about 1,000 years before documented Neolithic agricultural practices starting in the Middle East (Cavalli-Sforza 1996).
Fourth, the Iberian language has now been deciphered and has been found to be similar to Etruscan and Minoan Linear A (Alonso-Garcia 1996, 1998; Arnaiz-Villena and Alonso-Garcia 1998, 1999). Basque (and its Spanish translation) has been the Rosetta stone. Table 3 lists words compiled by Arnaiz-Villena and Alonso-Garcia (1998) that are cognates from a common origin. The Basque language had also been related to North Caucasian and to Etruscan languages (Bengston 1991; Ruhlen 1991; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994).
Thus, the question that Jared Diamond posed to Terrell et al. (1998)Do Terrell et al. believe all Europeans spoke a single tongue, Basque, until a few thousand years ago?can be answered. The answer is, It is possible. Caucasians, Etruscans, and the first Minoans from Crete spoke a language similar to Basque and Berber; probably, the origin of this language came from the Saharan people who were forced to migrate northward in pre-Neolithic times when desiccation started (McCauley et al. 1982).
Acknowledgments This research was supported in part by the Spanish Ministry of Education through grants PM57-95 and PM96-21, by FIS through grant 94-0367, by the Ramon Areces Fundacion, and by Comunidad de Madrid through grants 06-7097 and 8.3/14/98. We thank Isabel Gonzalez Cham6n for her technical skill at preparing the manuscript.
Received 4 August 1998; revision received 10 December 1998.
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ANTONIO ARNAIZ-VIL,LENA, JORGE MARTINEZ-LASO,1 AND JORGE ALONSOGARCIA
' Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, Hospital 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, 28041 Madrid, Spain.
2Fundacion de Estudios Genlticos y Linguisticos, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain.
Copyright Wayne State University Press Oct 1999
Enviado por: sierra002 em Janeiro 17, 2006, 11:09:23 am
Dejando chistes de lado... ¡Hay que ver lo que eso le gustaría a algunos!
Enviado por: dremanu em Janeiro 17, 2006, 06:40:26 pm
Citação de: "sierra002"
Si los portugueses son una raza diferente, muchos españoles lo celebrarian.
Dejando chistes de lado... ¡Hay que ver lo que eso le gustaría a algunos!
Não somos uma raça diferente, mas sim possuímos genes que não se encontram na população de Espanha.
Enviado por: papatango em Janeiro 18, 2006, 08:27:38 pm
Dá-me a impressão de que os autores consideraram os espanhóis, os portugueses e os bascos, e fico a pensar que o artigo tem como objectivo explicar que os bascos são diferentes dos espanhóis.
A argumentação parece ser:
Se os portugueses têm genes diferentes dos espanhóis e são outro país, então os bascos, que também têm genes diferentes, tambám são um país.
Normalmente desconfio de artigos, onde se apresenta a espanha como uma entidade uniforme. Eu pessoalmente, pelo meu conhecimento da realidade, tenho dificuldade em aceitar que os genes dos portugueses, especialmente os que se situam a norte do Douro, sejam muito diferentes dos galegos. Não faz sentido que seja de outra maneira.
Ao mesmo tempo, as diferenças entre portugueses e castelhanos, já são perfeitamente normais, e nós vemo-las a olho nú. Relativamente aos antigos "iberos" ou seja os habitantes do oriente peninsular nem se fala.
Não posso como é obvio por o estudo em causa, mas posso apontar o que considero ser um ponto pouco explicado. Acredito que os portugueses sejam diferentes de grande parte dos espanhóis, mas não de todos eles.
De qualquer forma, o estudo explica, ou ajuda a explicar muita coisa. Portugal foi, até à segunda guerra mundial uma ilha na Europa. O nosso comércio fazia-se por mar, e estavamos isolados do continente pela Espanha.
Antes, durante a idade média e a renascença, o comércio de Portugal, era essencialmente com o que hoje é a Holanda, a Bélgica, a França, parte da Alemanha, o País de Gales e a Inglaterra, que se encontravam muito mais perto, em numero de dias de viagem.
Estas regiões sempre foram muito mais importantes para nós que as regiões mediterrânicas, onde mantinhamos especialmente relações com as principais cidades-estado da peninsula itálica e com a Coroa de Aragão, até por esta também se extender pelo sul da peninsula itálica e pouco mais.
Portanto, desde sempre, estivemos dissociados do mediterrâneo e das culturas mediterrânicas, as quais estavam demasiado longe, e implicavam passar por um mar infestado de piratas muçulmanos, o que tornava os produtos mais caros,
A realidade genética, apenas vem confirmar o que a realidade Histórica nos diz.
Cumprimentos
Enviado por: sierra002 em Janeiro 18, 2006, 08:43:23 pm
Es mejor no darle más cuerda a este tema.
Enviado por: P44 em Janeiro 18, 2006, 09:02:06 pm
Citação de: "sierra002"
Editado.
Es mejor no darle más cuerda a este tema.
Oh sierra
Deixa-o tar , ele é assim desde pequenino, deve ter bebido muito leite espanhol e fez-lhe cólicas :wink:
Enviado por: papatango em Janeiro 18, 2006, 09:23:56 pm
Citação de: "Sierra002"
Editado.Não há nenhuma razão para não argumentar desde que haja argumentações ou pontos de vista minimamente fundados.
Es mejor no darle más cuerda a este tema.
Por outro lado escrever um tópico com "Editado" dá a impressão de que alguém anda a censurar alguém, o que não corresponde obviamente à verdade.
Cumprimentos
Enviado por: sierra002 em Janeiro 18, 2006, 09:48:33 pm
Citar
Editado.
Es mejor no darle más cuerda a este tema.
Fue editado por Sierra002
Espero que así no haya dudas.
Enviado por: papatango em Janeiro 18, 2006, 10:09:30 pm
Você tem o direito de escrever o que quiser e como quiser, dentro de regras minimas de comportamento às quais estamos todos obrigados, a questão é que nos deu a ideia de que queria dizer algo, e depois desistiu.
Como nós somos por natureza um povo curioso, podemos ter reservas quando alguém, diz apenas que tem vontade de dizer alguma coisa mas não quer porque existem razões para se auto-censurar.
Não há no entanto problema nenhum com nenhuma mensagem.
Cumprimentos
Enviado por: sierra002 em Janeiro 18, 2006, 10:28:10 pm
-Escriba usted sobre las glorias de la raza portuguesa.
-¿Qué escriba sobre las glorias de la raza portuguesa? ¡Pero es que la raza portuguesa no existe!
Si se hiciera un estudio genético de la población de una aldea del Algarve y se la compara con la población de la aldea vecina, saldrian diferencias.
Enviado por: emarques em Janeiro 19, 2006, 05:16:15 am
Citação de: "sierra002"
Si se hiciera un estudio genético de la población de una aldea del Algarve y se la compara con la población de la aldea vecina, saldrian diferencias.´
Mas isso é porque uma está é povoada por ingleses e a outra por uma mistura de alemães e portugueses. :mrgreen:
Enviado por: João Ratão em Dezembro 19, 2013, 05:58:16 pm
There shouldn't be any more issues regarding this subject.
There are however certain entities, over the Internet, trying to give a false depiction on how Portuguese look like.
You are sure to witness, articles and videos trying to mislead viewers of the world, into believing the Portuguese are not White.
Below are examples of Portuguese men.
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-wV_Jga5Ok-0%2FUflBlqkySbI%2FAAAAAAAADpc%2FPvUnLX4dhB4%2Fs200%2FEduardo%2BAfonso%2BPimentel%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=a6f659ffd688e154e13b92db08e8e232)(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-hq55jAx73s0%2FUkRnN2bQIzI%2FAAAAAAAAFz0%2F9_9oN1k07RI%2Fs200%2FPaulo%2BRocha2%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=d09a431a1fcc661a62f7cd5b0d8c8e59)(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-whUlnOllnwY%2FUa-LPKEYooI%2FAAAAAAAAAx8%2Fl5Pc2R5oTWc%2Fs200%2FJo%25C3%25A3o%2Breis%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=ad329db7e876753501941dd08ce3ae28)(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-1eFGGUy6cA8%2FUa-LYYBcitI%2FAAAAAAAAAyE%2FncrfGQ6wgOs%2Fs200%2FPedro%2BTeixeira%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=c64c1526103b85a855bb0541a3c34a69)(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F--kbSovxg5tM%2FUfPdG1TPCnI%2FAAAAAAAADMM%2FZrTc18kj50E%2Fs200%2FDuarte%2BAlbano%2BJer%25C3%25B3nimo%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=41dcc9f2daad96ed967701869214ed0f)(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-Jb7CTqESZKw%2FUgANBIdFZhI%2FAAAAAAAAD1M%2FDHVl1gvkD-Q%2Fs200%2FPedro%2BLima%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=41e8afeec3377754f517a2c56c0da478)
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-Z5gX8MwKSOk%2FUjb7566iwyI%2FAAAAAAAAFJ0%2FbADtlWerIPM%2Fs200%2FDiogo%2BMorgado2%25252C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=8ea449e3c99a18ab68c1bc47c021f722)(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-Zwza3cnwfRQ%2FUhj0ql5L8fI%2FAAAAAAAAEW4%2FsSPsku1nEHs%2Fs200%2FJorge%2BCorrula3%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=c3b0a9f2739d977328eacceea50ae7e2)(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-SSgweIRm5IA%2FUa-0Y4KrcEI%2FAAAAAAAAA0I%2F2d61FlZthhY%2Fs200%2FRicardo%2BPereira%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=8ea485621b76682db5e44af5eeddfa77)(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-9x44OdnIx8M%2FUa-093LwLYI%2FAAAAAAAAA0Y%2FckQEzfS4Gus%2Fs200%2FRui%2BAndrade%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=a8881e49708a52029f1c27de6022422e)(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-PDGedtTuIn4%2FUkRpPUPYOyI%2FAAAAAAAAF0I%2Fe3jnjUO1k6Y%2Fs200%2FPedro%2BSousa2%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=f44baa1722401738fb2ea3d12a70b173)(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-976nDKFrmpk%2FUcgPkk4cz7I%2FAAAAAAAABVM%2FkEb_Qpd4CNU%2Fs200%2FMarco%2BD%27Almeida%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=d787f0720a0b0c9841c63066cb204ce4)
Below are examples of Portuguese women
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-H1ejiUzUwVA%2FUbMos-4c97I%2FAAAAAAAAA50%2FLOXAvsGzDwg%2Fs200%2FCatarina%2BGouveia2%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=c89e088c3113bc8bc3cf56dd0422e939)(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-TydzcgxW9L8%2FUgAd9S0fEpI%2FAAAAAAAAD2o%2FZKh3Ktao6A8%2Fs200%2FAnabela%2BTeixeira%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=05fbd392e9d805ce6973441d347bd75a)(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-Gpkquy37Dys%2FUjb46MAKk7I%2FAAAAAAAAFIw%2FNy1928g8bVs%2Fs200%2FCl%25C3%25A1udia%2BVieira%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=a942bfd9e80c5617bef255df342ff337)(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-8TdJp5VWQko%2FUgDjVA6zolI%2FAAAAAAAAD3s%2FJfmIdHseaog%2Fs200%2FTeresa%2BMacedo%25252C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=07d72ca6bb044caf58dc88a4eb10d706)(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-Fn7yZyHWBaQ%2FUbEGlYaGi0I%2FAAAAAAAAA3o%2FS-GQR_IGnbo%2Fs200%2FDiana%2BNicolau%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=baaab09be9217a9cae3cd04a57de89f5)(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-xoE3Jtj3NhY%2FUgz9MCAHoHI%2FAAAAAAAAEM0%2FEiExxnPK6ww%2Fs200%2FIn%25C3%25AAs%2BCastel%2BBranco2%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=962368148d32af7e5ca609e91ad1a9a9)
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-0ZaBlxJhWf0%2FUbYyjiiWKBI%2FAAAAAAAABCI%2F7srEO7SAXzo%2Fs200%2FMaria%2BJo%25C3%25A3o%2BBastos2%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=7134071df1ca8e9d927d7f6706c8db63)(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-v46fK2d5eOQ%2FUiy6GZM8xVI%2FAAAAAAAAEwY%2FNRLcN6sXWtM%2Fs200%2FNuria%2BMadruga%25252C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=dca155318c6674fc7e5704be1a6dcd32)(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-TZwMNES7hWg%2FUbEFpnzu5oI%2FAAAAAAAAA24%2FP-tmWb2M_P4%2Fs200%2FOceana%2BBas%25C3%25ADlio%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=d1bb0124cbf20d8ecde0aef986b84a5c)(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-CENndMGpQxc%2FUbEHaeLHnEI%2FAAAAAAAAA4I%2FGws6zJPRke8%2Fs200%2FPaula%2BLobo%2BAntunes%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=84f6def7db6390e8b2ac55afd34edcf3)(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-cqOh4Y6BunA%2FUbEELuYD9ZI%2FAAAAAAAAA2Q%2FsM2XNCmFEKQ%2Fs200%2FSara%2BPrata2%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=871f475fd5c9917757b61ddc339f8a86)(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-Mf7odRvLPL4%2FUbEFKQSVbSI%2FAAAAAAAAA2w%2FF1cXCuPVpQc%2Fs200%2FAna%2BVarela%2C%2BPortuguese_people.jpg&hash=a265166606bb0a0e1dd15bea5dab3e3e)
The concept of "Hispanic/Latino", is an identity irresponsibility fabricated by Americans, and mischievously attributed to a group of people from Latin America and Spain, who have nothing in common, but the language they speak.
Such terminology does not exist in Europe, nor anywhere else in the world.
Read the following article:
http://www.globalpolitician.com/default ... th-america (http://www.globalpolitician.com/default.asp?2946-hispanic-latin-america-south-america)
Without further notes, to answer your question.
No. The Portuguese are not "Hispanic/Latino" by anyones definition. The Portuguese are, and identify themselves as White/Europe.
Read the following article:
http://portuguese-american-journal.com/ ... ic-update/ (http://portuguese-american-journal.com/disclaimer-us-census-bureau-will-not-classify-portuguese-as-hispanic-update/)
Enviado por: Cabecinhas em Dezembro 19, 2013, 08:03:55 pm
Enviado por: João Ratão em Dezembro 19, 2013, 09:35:16 pm
Citação de: "Cabecinhas"
Falta ai umas tezes mais escuras... porque se colocam loiras de olho azul ou ruivas, porque não tez negra?!
tezes? O que é queres dizer com isso?
Negra? Desde quando é que os Negros são étnicamente falando, Portugueses?
Os Negros a viver em Portugal, não são Portugueses. São apenas minorias étnicas que vivem em Portugal.
Assim como os negros a viver em Inglaterra não são Ingleses.
Daí, estes, não representam o fenótipo Português.
Não sei qual é o problema que colocar loiros de olhos azuis? Já que esta parcela da população é nativa de Portugal. (Eu so coloquei uma loira)
Loiros representam +-20% da população Portuguesa. Ou seja, em cada 10 Portugueses 1 é loiro.
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-5Xdf39yFAbk%2FUm6KB-JxtZI%2FAAAAAAAAHjA%2FoyrN-paNFVg%2Fs1600%2FConclus%25C3%25A3o%2BCabelo%2BClaro%2B%28Louro%29.png&hash=d587dcc58e693166af6e1af4f7219b26)
Ruivos é suma representam +-2% da população.
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-xkEf16EpGUs%2FUqtQIvwAfTI%2FAAAAAAAAJXQ%2F_aVNg9_vrVQ%2Fs1600%2FConclus%2525C3%2525A3o%2BCabelo%2BVermelho.png&hash=322f74584b4ef4297d3449505467020a)
Enviado por: HSMW em Dezembro 19, 2013, 09:54:29 pm
E então quem são os portugueses de gema?! O fenótipo? Onde está a origem do português típico?!
Nos Fenícios? Nos Romanos? Celtas? Cartagineses? Outros povos árabes do Magrebe? E quais as origens destes?
Já se dizia nos melhores tempos do nacionalismo português:
Portugal uno e indivisível, do Minho a Timor
Enviado por: João Ratão em Dezembro 19, 2013, 10:41:12 pm
Citação de: "HSMW"
Olha só o que aqui vai...
E então quem são os portugueses de gema?! O fenótipo? Onde está a origem do português típico?!
Nos Fenícios? Nos Romanos? Celtas? Cartagineses? Outros povos árabes do Magrebe? E quais as origens destes?
Já se dizia nos melhores tempos do nacionalismo português:
Portugal uno e indivisível, do Minho a Timor
Se um negro nascesse no Japão seria ele Japonês?
- É claro que não.
Então por que haveria um negro nascido em Portugal, ser Português?
- Um Português é uma pessoa descendente de Portugueses.
Desta forma.
Se um pato nascesse n'um ninho de uma galinha, este não seria pinto.
Os Portugueses de gema são descendentes dos Lusitanos.
Aliás, já o próprio poeta Nacional, Luís Váz de Camões, invocava e se proponha a cantar os feitos de Viriato e do exército Lusitano enquanto nossos antepassados.
Outras componentes incluem os Romanos que até nos deixaram a língua, e Visigodos & Suevos.
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpalma1.no.sapo.pt%2Fviriaest.jpg&hash=92c71eec2b20ca94905246b5c0481c7d)
Como é referido pelo Professor de Antropologia do ISCTE, João Leal:
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-oTeFoCn97-E%2FUrN1ZPiovAI%2FAAAAAAAAJfc%2FbToo8GTAKck%2Fs1600%2FLusitanos%2Bantepassados%2Bdos%2BPortugueses%2B%28Etnografia%2BPortuguesa%29.png&hash=4fd03be69bb1f1d6ad3f54729f800dab)
Um exemplo de um Português abaixo.
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-4rrWt6nKn8Q%2FUl5sg8JhlFI%2FAAAAAAAAGyI%2FAtPw3I5BKP8%2Fs320%2FViriathus%2B-%2BDiogo%2BMorgado%2C%2BPortuguese%2Bpeople%2B-%2BPortuguese%2Bphenotype.png&hash=fff78822088d577dc8f350d5192ce34e)
↑ Lusitano-------------------------------------Português ↑
Enviado por: Cabeça de Martelo em Dezembro 20, 2013, 12:07:57 pm
Fónix, afinal o que raio é que eu sou?!
Enviado por: Cabeça de Martelo em Dezembro 20, 2013, 12:14:06 pm
Enviado por: Cabeça de Martelo em Dezembro 20, 2013, 12:19:21 pm
Eu sabia, filhos da mãe dos judeus... podia ser africano...nãaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaao, foi logo judeus! Pelo menos o tamanho da minha pilinha tem uma justificação...
Enviado por: Cabeça de Martelo em Dezembro 20, 2013, 12:23:48 pm
Citar
We are not Celts at all but Galicians
BRIAN DONNELLY September 10 2004
CELTIC nations such as Scotland and Ireland have more in common with the Portuguese and Spanish than with the Celts of central Europe, according to a new academic report.Historians have long believed that the British Isles were swamped by a massive invasion of Iron Age Celts from central Europe around 500BC.However, geneticists at Trinity College in Dublin now claim that the Scots and Irish have more in common with the people of north-western Spain.
Dr Daniel Bradley, genetics lecturer at Trinity College, said a new study into Celtic origins revealed close affinities with the people of Galicia.He said: "It's well-known that there are cultural relations between the areas but now this shows there is much more. We think the links are much older than that of the Iron Age because it also shows affinities with the Basque region, which isn't a Celtic region."He added: "The links point towards other Celtic nations, in particular Scotland, but they also point to Spain.
"Historians believed the Celts, originally Indo-European, invaded the Atlantic islands in a massive migration 2500 years ago.But using DNA samples from people living in Celtic nations and other parts of Europe, geneticists at the university have drawn new parallels.Dr Bradley said it was possible migrants moved from the Iberian peninsula to Ireland as far back as 6000 years ago up until 3000 years ago."I don't agree with the idea of a massive Iron Age invasion that took over the Atlantic islands.
You can regard the ocean, rather than a barrier, as a communication route," Dr Bradley said.Archaeologists have also been questioning the links between the Celts of eastern France and southern Germany and the people of the British Isles and the new research appears to prove their theories.The Dublin study found that people in areas traditionally known as Celtic, such as Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Brittany and Cornwall, had strong links with each other and had more in common with people from the Iberian peninsula.
It also found people in Ireland have more in common with Scots than any other nation."What we would propose is that this commonality among the Atlantic facade is much older, 6000 years ago or earlier," Dr Bradley added.There are also close links between Scotland and Ireland dating back much further than the plantations of the 1600s when many Scots moved to Northern Ireland in search of fertile farming lands, the research showed.However, the researchers could not determine whether fair skin, freckles, red hair and fiery tempers truly are Celtic traits.
Stephen Oppenheimer, professor of clinical socio-medical sciences at Oxford, said that the Celts of western Scotland, Wales, Ireland and Cornwall were descended from an ancient people living on the Atlantic coast when Britain was still attached to mainland Europe, while the English were more closely related to the Germanic peoples of the interior.
He said: "The English are the odd ones out because they are the ones more linked to continental Europe. The Scots, the Irish, the Welsh and the Cornish are all very similar in their genetic pattern to the Basque."The study headed by Dr Bradley was published in the American Journal of Human Genetics.
Enviado por: Cabeça de Martelo em Dezembro 20, 2013, 01:13:58 pm
Enviado por: Luso em Dezembro 20, 2013, 01:25:01 pm
E que sobretudo é IMPORTANTÍSSIMO para a realidade actual e futura... :roll: :roll:
Enviado por: João Ratão em Dezembro 20, 2013, 01:52:47 pm
Citação de: "Cabeça de Martelo"
Eu sabia, filhos da mãe dos judeus... podia ser africano...nãaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaao, foi logo judeus! Pelo menos o tamanho da minha pilinha tem uma justificação...
Como podes ver no diagrama abaixo, os Portugueses ficam dentro do do espectro Europeu, bem perto dos Espanhois e bem longe dos Judeus Sefarditas.
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fabload.de%2Fimg%2Fmfa_eurogenes_mdszzo3v.png&hash=ebe2cc50b39769c494fa5fcf9579f5ca)
Os próprios judeus foram expulsos durante a Inquisição Cristã. Muitos destes para o Brasil.
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-KkYvge6P3G8%2FT6am-x6S_xI%2FAAAAAAAAAzQ%2FEOz3LP8bml4%2Fs640%2F16%2B-%2B01%2BA%2Bexpulsao%2Bdos%2Bjudeus%2Bb.jpg&hash=f6cd7126e5b16eb8a5364ac790f1b16d)
Citação de: "Cabeça de Martelo"
Esta reportagem (logo da TVI) não representa a população geral de Portugal.
Dada a natureza da mídia Multicultural, nos canais Portugueses, existem entidades que tentam bastardizar a identidade dos Portugueses e de Portugal enquanto nação homogénia e Europeia.
O estudo realizado (Pereira et al.) foi feito numa pequena população do interior da freguesia de Alcáçer do Sal, onde foram segregados escravos Africanos.
Os Portugueses (pessoas Portuguesas) têm o memo ADN que o resto da Europe Ocidental. O seja, o Haplogroupo R1b.
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com%2F7231%2F6922380462_b86e53de5d_o.png&hash=7f8b0c7738033266a42076a883cf1967)
Aliás, como concluiu o Antropólogo e Professor Português, António Mendes Corrêa.
"Os Portugueses não têm afinidades hemáticas com is negros de Africa"
Nota: Nem todos os habitantes de Portugal são Portugueses.
Assim como, nem todos os habitantes de França são Franceses.
Enviado por: João Ratão em Dezembro 20, 2013, 01:59:10 pm
Citação de: "Cabeça de Martelo"
E agora só para baralhar...CitarWe are not Celts at all but Galicians
BRIAN DONNELLY September 10 2004
CELTIC nations such as Scotland and Ireland have more in common with the Portuguese and Spanish than with the Celts of central Europe, according to a new academic report.Historians have long believed that the British Isles were swamped by a massive invasion of Iron Age Celts from central Europe around 500BC.However, geneticists at Trinity College in Dublin now claim that the Scots and Irish have more in common with the people of north-western Spain.
Dr Daniel Bradley, genetics lecturer at Trinity College, said a new study into Celtic origins revealed close affinities with the people of Galicia.He said: "It's well-known that there are cultural relations between the areas but now this shows there is much more. We think the links are much older than that of the Iron Age because it also shows affinities with the Basque region, which isn't a Celtic region."He added: "The links point towards other Celtic nations, in particular Scotland, but they also point to Spain.
"Historians believed the Celts, originally Indo-European, invaded the Atlantic islands in a massive migration 2500 years ago.But using DNA samples from people living in Celtic nations and other parts of Europe, geneticists at the university have drawn new parallels.Dr Bradley said it was possible migrants moved from the Iberian peninsula to Ireland as far back as 6000 years ago up until 3000 years ago."I don't agree with the idea of a massive Iron Age invasion that took over the Atlantic islands.
You can regard the ocean, rather than a barrier, as a communication route," Dr Bradley said.Archaeologists have also been questioning the links between the Celts of eastern France and southern Germany and the people of the British Isles and the new research appears to prove their theories.The Dublin study found that people in areas traditionally known as Celtic, such as Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Brittany and Cornwall, had strong links with each other and had more in common with people from the Iberian peninsula.
It also found people in Ireland have more in common with Scots than any other nation."What we would propose is that this commonality among the Atlantic facade is much older, 6000 years ago or earlier," Dr Bradley added.There are also close links between Scotland and Ireland dating back much further than the plantations of the 1600s when many Scots moved to Northern Ireland in search of fertile farming lands, the research showed.However, the researchers could not determine whether fair skin, freckles, red hair and fiery tempers truly are Celtic traits.
Stephen Oppenheimer, professor of clinical socio-medical sciences at Oxford, said that the Celts of western Scotland, Wales, Ireland and Cornwall were descended from an ancient people living on the Atlantic coast when Britain was still attached to mainland Europe, while the English were more closely related to the Germanic peoples of the interior.
He said: "The English are the odd ones out because they are the ones more linked to continental Europe. The Scots, the Irish, the Welsh and the Cornish are all very similar in their genetic pattern to the Basque."The study headed by Dr Bradley was published in the American Journal of Human Genetics.
Este artigo já foi refutado.
A ideia de que os habitantes da ilhas Britanicas eram inicialmente Ibéricos, foi uma teoria propagada pelo antropólogo Stepphen Oppenheimer.
Este defendia que após os glaciares terem desaparecido da Europa Continetal, os Iberos vieram popular o arquipélago insular Britânico.
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com%2F7432%2F9196519062_5a71515ca6_o.jpg&hash=57672758bb34cbc219b8b148e80dafff)
O verdadeiro padrão migratório do do haplogrupo R1b é o seguinde.
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8326%2F8079966642_532a5fd223_o.jpg&hash=c7f0b08ecca7269bb4ac2efa8dfb092c)
Enviado por: Cabeça de Martelo em Dezembro 20, 2013, 03:35:44 pm
Citação de: "Luso"
Isso, isso, ora aqui está mais um "problema" importado.
E que sobretudo é IMPORTANTÍSSIMO para a realidade actual e futura... :roll: :roll:
Aqui o "advogado do diabo" concorda e discorda (dependendo da pessoa do outro lado do PC).... c34x :wink:
Enviado por: Cabeça de Martelo em Dezembro 20, 2013, 04:49:28 pm
Se eu tiver sangue africano ou árabe sou menos Português que um indíviduo que não o tenha? Isso é ridiculo, já que esta coisa das nacionalidades é algo de emocional e pouco do racional. Tenho um conhecido que tem pouco ou nenhum orgulho de ser Português e que ao longo da nossa amizade (que é muito fraquinha já que acho a pessoa insuportável) ele passou de um isto devia ser tudo Espanhol/Europeu, para um isto é tudo uma $%&& e vou pirar-me lá para fora (apesar de nunca mais partir). Tenho outro que é um ferveroso patriota tendo servido como voluntário nas Forças Armadas numa altura em que ainda havia o SEN. Um é branquíssimo da silva o outro é mestiço (mãe Cobo-Verdiana). Um porque é branco é automaticamente mais Português que o outro?
Uma coisa que eu recomendo às pessoas que têm a presunção de serem uma coisa ou a outra é fazerem um teste de ADN, é simples e relativamente rápida. Todas as pessoas que eu recomendei, havia uma que fez o dito teste... ainda estou à espera que essa pessoa diga-me o resultado.
Só conheço duas pessoas que fizeram esse tipo de teste, uma até fez por minha indicação (fez a do NG), a outra fez numa universidade Portuguesa. Ambas ficaram surpreendidas com os resultados (um pouco como o Rui Reininho). Uma tinha ascendência nórdica, a outra era uma verdadeira miscelânea de povos, ambos são o que podemos chamar de tipo português/sa.
Para mim isto é secundário, eu sei quem sou, tenho uma imagem bastante forte da minha pessoa e se por ventura alguma vez fizesse um teste destes, estaria perfeitamente aberto a qualquer tipo de possibilidade.
Eu sou um simples português, filho dos meus pais, neto dos meus avós, marido da minha mulher, pai da minha filha linda que por sinal é branca, cabelo castanho claro e uns olhos enormes que mudam de cor como o pai. O resto... é o resto.
Enviado por: Luso em Dezembro 20, 2013, 05:00:55 pm
"Estes":
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-GbFTNlZrHMY%2FTlRZMAcgjLI%2FAAAAAAAAAdY%2FlV-8OotBQDE%2Fs1600%2FD.%2BAleixo%2BCorte%2BReal%2B-%2B1886-1943%2B-%2BTIMOR%25252C%2BPORTUGAL.jpg&hash=b7e478a4146cdb88796285b7be0203e7)
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fultramar.terraweb.biz%2FImagens%2FGuine%2FTEN%2520COR%2520Marcelino%2520da%2520Mata%2FMMata_250.jpg&hash=a12139fc2a22b3a3a915ddd594193219)
Ou isto?
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffotos.sapo.pt%2Fblogsapo%2Fpic%2F0001we3q&hash=d7f7915ddbd7c8185433a48e029a09e0)
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F8%2F81%2FM%25C3%25A1rio_Soares_%25282003%2529.jpeg%2F200px-M%25C3%25A1rio_Soares_%25282003%2529.jpeg&hash=5418c84b3390394533b65d1082982bf7)
Estes estrangeirados internacionalistas. Comunas ou nazis são ambos socialistas, ambos internacionalistas. Não sujem Portugal!
Enviado por: PCartCast em Dezembro 20, 2013, 05:18:06 pm
Citação de: "João Ratão"
- Um Português é uma pessoa descendente de Portugueses.Amigo, só isto cobre uma boa porção das ex-colónias portuguesas, e quase 100% de Cabo-Verde.
Citação de: "João Ratão"
Os Portugueses de gema são descendentes dos Lusitanos.Ui... E de Gregos, Fenícios, Cartagineses, Suevos, Visigodos, Ostrogodos, Celtas, Iberos... Chiça, são tantos, Ui Ui. O que é o mesmo que dizer que os portugueses de gema não existem, somos todos uma salada russa.
Citação de: "João Ratão"
Aliás, já o próprio poeta Nacional, Luís Váz de Camões, invocava e se proponha a cantar os feitos de Viriato e do exército Lusitano enquanto nossos antepassados.Lá porque você apenas coma uma variedade de batatas, não significa que não existam mais variedades, certo??
Caro João Ratão, você parece que está numa espécie de crusada, já é o segundo fórum em que o apanho com esta temática. O que eu lhe posso dizer é que somos da maneira que nascemos, não interessa se somos Africanos, asiáticos, Europeus ou o raio que o parta, somos todos Homo-Sapiens Sapiens.
Edit: E já lá vão quase dois anos desde que postei neste fórum pela última vez, lol.
Enviado por: papatango em Dezembro 20, 2013, 06:14:28 pm
Citar
Eu sou um simples português, filho dos meus pais, neto dos meus avós, marido da minha mulher, pai da minha filha linda que por sinal é branca, cabelo castanho claro e uns olhos enormes que mudam de cor como o pai. O resto... é o resto.
Bem que eu desconfiava que os marcianos andavam por aí.
Só ainda não tinha visto nenhum escrever num fórum ... :mrgreen:
Enviado por: papatango em Dezembro 20, 2013, 06:17:30 pm
Citação de: "João Ratão"
Os Portugueses de gema são descendentes dos Lusitanos.O que naturalmente leva à pergunta:
E de quem descendem os lusitanos ?
E como o meu gene picuinhas, é assim mesmo, ninguém notou isto ?
Citação de: "João Ratão"
Loiros representam +-20% da população Portuguesa. Ou seja, em cada 10 Portugueses 1 é loiro.Acho que deve ser um problema do gene da matemática.
Ou será da aritmética ...
Enviado por: PCartCast em Dezembro 20, 2013, 06:41:34 pm
Citação de: "papatango"
Acho que deve ser um problema do gene da matemática.
Ou será da aritmética ...
Fizeste-me lembrar um caso recente...
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.telegraph.co.uk%2Fmultimedia%2Farchive%2F02709%2Fmaria_2709094b.jpg&hash=6bff050d579a90670415ef636555b36f)
Os pais desta menina com uma irmã
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FGuardian%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2013%2F10%2F21%2F1382381920680%2FRoma-parents-of-Maria-dis-008.jpg&hash=206915fd6b3f7dbb042e16f01cc7d0d0)
E mais outra irmã
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.novinite.com%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F2013-10%2Fphoto_verybig_154895.jpg&hash=aa9d1833ab341d6476cf47e15cddecb3)
Resumo, é o caso da rapariga grega que foi encontrada num acampamento cigado, e que afinal de contas era mesmo filha de ciganos, embora os seus pais fossem búlgaros.
Isto só para diser, que nem tudo o que parece o é.
Enviado por: João Ratão em Dezembro 20, 2013, 08:01:36 pm
Citação de: "Cabeça de Martelo"
João Ratão as questões que eu deixo são simples.
Tenho outro que é um ferveroso patriota tendo servido como voluntário nas Forças Armadas numa altura em que ainda havia o SEN. Um é branquíssimo da silva o outro é mestiço (mãe Cobo-Verdiana). Um porque é branco é automaticamente mais Português que o outro?
Um Cabo Verdiano é o que é, e o que irá sempre ser. Um Cabo Verdiano.
A raça de uma pessoa não muda após adequirir a Nacionalidade de um outro país.
Um cão haverá de ser sempre um cão. Assim como um gato irá ser sempre um gato.
"Não é por um cão nascer numa capoeira passa a ser Galinha. Cão é cão nasça onde nascer."
Enviado por: João Ratão em Dezembro 20, 2013, 08:07:24 pm
Citação de: "Luso"
Oh Ratão, quem é mais português?
(Já agora, sabe quem foram?)
Marcelino Mata. Ele é da Guiné, o que faz dele um não-Português.
Isto é mais Português, com certza.
Citação de: "Luso"
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffotos.sapo.pt%2Fblogsapo%2Fpic%2F0001we3q&hash=d7f7915ddbd7c8185433a48e029a09e0)
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F8%2F81%2FM%25C3%25A1rio_Soares_%25282003%2529.jpeg%2F200px-M%25C3%25A1rio_Soares_%25282003%2529.jpeg&hash=5418c84b3390394533b65d1082982bf7)
Enviado por: João Ratão em Dezembro 20, 2013, 08:23:17 pm
Citação de: "PCartCast"
Citação de: "João Ratão"- Um Português é uma pessoa descendente de Portugueses.Amigo, só isto cobre uma boa porção das ex-colónias portuguesas, e quase 100% de Cabo-Verde.
Falso!
Ex-colonos não são, nem nunca serão Portugueses.
Um Cabo Verdiano não é Português. Lá por falar a língua, não muda a sua raça.
Citação de: "PCartCast"
Citação de: "João Ratão"Os Portugueses de gema são descendentes dos Lusitanos.Ui... E de Gregos, Fenícios, Cartagineses, Suevos, Visigodos, Ostrogodos, Celtas, Iberos... Chiça, são tantos, Ui Ui. O que é o mesmo que dizer que os portugueses de gema não existem, somos todos uma salada russa.Citação de: "João Ratão"Aliás, já o próprio poeta Nacional, Luís Váz de Camões, invocava e se proponha a cantar os feitos de Viriato e do exército Lusitano enquanto nossos antepassados.Lá porque você apenas coma uma variedade de batatas, não significa que não existam mais variedades, certo??
Caro João Ratão, você parece que está numa espécie de crusada, já é o segundo fórum em que o apanho com esta temática. O que eu lhe posso dizer é que somos da maneira que nascemos, não interessa se somos Africanos, asiáticos, Europeus ou o raio que o parta, somos todos Homo-Sapiens Sapiens.
Semi-Falso.
Os Portugueses, assim como os resto dos Europeus, Asiáticos, e etc. são Homo Sapiens, com uma parcela Neandertal.
Apenas os Africanos é que são pura e simplesmente Homo-Sapiens.
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbc.co.uk%2Fnol%2Fshared%2Fspl%2Fhi%2Fsci_nat%2F10%2Fneanderthal%2Fimg%2Fneanderthals_786.gif&hash=67efed433a9b99abc85d0d5ff9363a1c)
Enviado por: PCartCast em Dezembro 20, 2013, 10:12:29 pm
Citação de: "João Ratão"
Um Cabo Verdiano é o que é, e o que irá sempre ser. Um Cabo Verdiano.No entanto, são praticamente todos eles descendentes de portugueses, e logo, Neanderthais :banana: :nice: ... e mesmo assim, não é 100% garantido.
A raça de uma pessoa não muda após adequirir a Nacionalidade de um outro país.
Um cão haverá de ser sempre um cão. Assim como um gato irá ser sempre um gato.
Enviado por: Cabecinhas em Dezembro 21, 2013, 02:36:34 pm
Citar
Falso!
Ex-colonos não são, nem nunca serão Portugueses.
Um Cabo Verdiano não é Português. Lá por falar a língua, não muda a sua raça.
Lá por você falar português e saber português, não implica que seja português, porque esse seu racismo não se coaduna com o espírito português que conquistou o mundo.
Já agora quero saber a sua opinião do alto da sua sabedoria em relação à minha pessoa, nasci em Macau mas sou filho de pai com raízes em Pombal e de mãe com raízes de Ceia... sou chinês pela sua lógica, porque nasci lá?!
Enviado por: Duarte em Dezembro 21, 2013, 02:47:58 pm
Citar
Marcelino Mata. Ele é da Guiné, o que faz dele um não-Português.
O Exmo. Sr. Tenente-Coronel (Comando) na reserva, Marcelino da Mata, é cidadão português, nascido na Guiné Portuguesa, condecorado com a Ordem Militar da Torre e Espada, do Valor, Lealdade e Mérito e Cinco Medalhas da Cruz de Guerra! É mais português do que um skinhead, neo-nazi, racista qualquer que ande por aí.
Enviado por: HSMW em Dezembro 21, 2013, 02:49:16 pm
Citação de: "Cabecinhas"
Lá por você falar português e saber português, não implica que seja português, porque esse seu racismo não se coaduna com o espírito português que conquistou o mundo.
Ora cá está o que diferencia o nacionalismo português dos restantes.
O nacionalista português não é racista. Por isso não nos confundam com neo-nazis, falangistas ou skinheads ou hammerskins!
Por foi quando os povos do Minho a Timor estiveram sobre a mesma bandeira que Portugal atingiu o expoente máximo da sua História.
Enviado por: Duarte em Dezembro 21, 2013, 02:49:59 pm
Citação de: "Luso"
O meu Portugal é do Minho a Timor. Isto é Portugal, é a Obra Grande e bonita.
Enviado por: Cabecinhas em Dezembro 21, 2013, 03:00:16 pm
Olha um "preto azulão carregado de carvão num túnel sem luz" mais português... mais português uma ova! Português com P grande e maiúsculo, que foi traído pela sua pátria, e que mesmo assim se diz português... peço desculpa é "preto azulão carregado de carvão num túnel sem luz", logo não é africano!
Em vez de apresentares gráficos, mapas e mapinhas, vai é estudar a história do teu "povo" e interpretar o modo que ele teve de conquistar o mundo... mais um pormenor o teu "rei" que tanto apregoava a raça ariana tinha um ar "aciganado".
Enviado por: João Ratão em Dezembro 22, 2013, 08:38:38 pm
Citação de: "PCartCast"
Citação de: "João Ratão"Um Cabo Verdiano é o que é, e o que irá sempre ser. Um Cabo Verdiano.No entanto, são praticamente todos eles descendentes de portugueses, e logo, Neanderthais :banana: :nice: ... e mesmo assim, não é 100% garantido.
A raça de uma pessoa não muda após adequirir a Nacionalidade de um outro país.
Um cão haverá de ser sempre um cão. Assim como um gato irá ser sempre um gato.
Já foi confirmado que todas a raças do mundo adequiriram entre 2% a 3% genes Nandertais.
Enviado por: João Ratão em Dezembro 22, 2013, 08:50:03 pm
Citação de: "Cabecinhas"
CitarFalso!
Ex-colonos não são, nem nunca serão Portugueses.
Um Cabo Verdiano não é Português. Lá por falar a língua, não muda a sua raça.
Lá por você falar português e saber português, não implica que seja português, porque esse seu racismo não se coaduna com o espírito português que conquistou o mundo.
Racismo?
Eu não sou Racista.
Tu (e outros) é que és racista, já que és tu o próprio que se recusa a aceitar e a perceber a identidade dos outros.
Ora vejamos, existem autores a afirmar que Cabo Verdiano são Portugueses... (Isso é racismo contra Cabo-Verdianos, já que não há recohnecimento de uma identidade Cabo Verdiana, por parte do mesmo autor.)
Eu sou Racialista. Há uma grande diferença.
- Um Cabo Verdiano é Cabo Verdiano. Logo, não é Português.
- Um Angolano é Angolano. Logo, não é Português
- Um Moçambicano é Moçambicano. Logo, não é Português.
- Um Português é Português. Logo, este é Português
Assim como...
- Cabo Verdiano é aquele que é filho de cabo Verdianos. Independentemente do local onde nascer.
- Angolano é aquele que é filho de Angolanos. Independentemente do local onde nascer.
- Moçambicanos é aquele que é filho de Moçambicanos. Independentemente do local onde nascer.
- Português é aquele que é filho de Portugueses. Independentemente do local onde nascer.
Citação de: "Cabecinhas"
Já agora quero saber a sua opinião do alto da sua sabedoria em relação à minha pessoa, nasci em Macau mas sou filho de pai com raízes em Pombal e de mãe com raízes de Ceia... sou chinês pela sua lógica, porque nasci lá?!
Eu já lhe fiz uma explicação.
Se és descendente de Portugueses, então és Português.
Se não és descendente de Portugueses... então não és.
Simples quanto isto. Não há que enganar.
Ler o Post que se segue:
Citação de: "João Ratão"
A raça de uma pessoa não muda após adequirir a Nacionalidade de um outro país.
Um cão haverá de ser sempre um cão. Assim como um gato irá ser sempre um gato.
"Não é por um cão nascer numa capoeira passa a ser Galinha. Cão é cão nasça onde nascer."
Enviado por: João Ratão em Dezembro 22, 2013, 08:58:45 pm
Citação de: "HSMW"
Olha só o que aqui vai...
E então quem são os portugueses de gema?! O fenótipo? Onde está a origem do português típico?!
Exemplos do fenótipo Português, do passado e do presente:
↓ Passado (-1900) .........-........ Presente (+1900) ↓
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-MfVpLnhHGXk%2FUl5skZY7XmI%2FAAAAAAAAGyQ%2Fo0nNBshntkI%2Fs1600%2FD.%2BAfonso%2BHenriques%2B-%2BOliveira%2BSalazar%2C%2BPortuguese%2Bpeople%2B-%2BPortuguese%2Bphenotype.png&hash=2f6bc9a069542ede0c03e7d67713d7a8)
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-xgiZ0lYQA1E%2FUnV8jYtlEPI%2FAAAAAAAAH4g%2F1C1vyN0GsvY%2Fs1600%2FD.%2BJo%25C3%25A3o%2BI%2B-%2BLu%25C3%25ADs%2BEsperteiro%2C%2BPortuguese%2Bpeople%2B-%2BPortuguese%2Bphenotype.png&hash=8fcd5150e6b1e1c2e1000cbde0667972)
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-wRrXNNSA4OU%2FUnajcCXoinI%2FAAAAAAAAH5o%2F2xZO2V1JZKY%2Fs1600%2FD.%2BNuno%2B%2525C3%252581lavares%2BPereira%2B-Camilo%2Bde%2BOliveira%25252C%2BPortuguese%2Bpeople%2B-%2BPortuguese%2Bphenotype.png&hash=7b7e4879cb404976a9389215e81e2fbd)
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-olNv6zcekYU%2FUnV8pyliEtI%2FAAAAAAAAH4o%2F1QxbCStaq_U%2Fs1600%2FInfante%2BD.%2BHenrique%2B-%2BHenrique%2BViana%2C%2BPortuguese%2Bpeople%2B-%2BPortuguese%2Bphenotype.png&hash=8c1890247ded3ba9c978ae460fc56110)
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-yBJjWwpI3ls%2FUl5tOIHlkxI%2FAAAAAAAAGzI%2Fjghl9bW0MiY%2Fs1600%2FVasco%2Bda%2BGama%2B-%2BJo%25C3%25A3o%2BReis%2C%2BPortuguese%2Bpeople%2B-%2BPortuguese%2Bphenotype.png&hash=dd7a406ebdf232500c8292b9bd9e056c)
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-Df8dSuyT6ks%2FUl5s2IvpRiI%2FAAAAAAAAGyo%2Fh66_pcfJfJM%2Fs1600%2FDiogo%2BC%25C3%25A3o%2B-%2BJoaquim%2Bde%2BAlmeida%2C%2BPortuguese%2Bpeople%2B-%2BPortuguese%2Bphenotype.png&hash=c0fcb27d8b0dbbf38a29267da8bc87e9)
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-KQws-jitHjc%2FUnV8N83S-YI%2FAAAAAAAAH4I%2F2zw4Okqir7M%2Fs1600%2FBartolomeu%2BDias%2B-%2BPedro%2BCerdeira%2C%2BPortuguese%2Bpeople%2B-%2BPortuguese%2Bphenotype.png&hash=c5bd8562d5333b176ff36c97bd3ad747)
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-tMCBSzQYzA8%2FUqeABP6k-CI%2FAAAAAAAAJO4%2FJQGq1XsRmEg%2Fs1600%2FFern%2525C3%2525A3o%2BMendes%2BPinto%2B-%2BFernando%2BLu%2525C3%2525ADs%25252C%2BPortuguese%2Bpeople%2B-%2BPortuguese%2Bphenotype.png&hash=94e7f862ea5c47912b4747e6225997b4)
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-zmO6VnxtKcc%2FUnV8ctUorHI%2FAAAAAAAAH4Y%2FSpevKRzlq2g%2Fs1600%2FFern%25C3%25A3o%2BMagalh%25C3%25A3es%2B-%2BAnt%25C3%25B3nio%2BVaria%25C3%25A7%25C3%25B5es%2C%2BPortuguese%2Bpeople%2B-%2BPortuguese%2Bphenotype.png&hash=8ac2846c8bf7131eedffce3decfe8fe4)
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-oFDhn9_dPBY%2FUnqygBK7sLI%2FAAAAAAAAIA0%2F7YylwjGyRDY%2Fs1600%2FFern%25C3%25A3o%2BLopes%2B-%2BRui%2BVeloso%2C%2BPortuguese%2Bpeople%2B-%2BPortuguese%2Bphenotype.png&hash=f9c8bb681a1ca1b77776f54f25676a9f)
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-L05mpnrkuNQ%2FUnV8wxJZzLI%2FAAAAAAAAH4w%2FO875gdeoYto%2Fs1600%2FLu%25C3%25ADs%2BV%25C3%25A1z%2Bde%2BCam%25C3%25B5es%2B-%2BAnt%25C3%25B3nio%2BVilar%2C%2BPortuguese%2Bpeople%2B-%2BPortuguese%2Bphenotype.png&hash=b01712f145624eca7b94f8e0c84f45e7)
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-E2Opht1Mxs8%2FUl5tVxtheRI%2FAAAAAAAAGzQ%2FyG4iDZyC8pk%2Fs1600%2FLu%25C3%25ADs%2BV%25C3%25A1z%2Bde%2BCam%25C3%25B5es%2B-%2BDiogo%2BAmaral%2C%2BPortuguese%2Bpeople%2B-%2BPortuguese%2Bphenotype.png&hash=74373cbcf032f5272d84f6f28e329d0c)
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-ezVMEjDCnzc%2FUqmfe070E7I%2FAAAAAAAAJUI%2FR_NDYMGUwzQ%2Fs1600%2FGil%2BVicente%2B-%2BPaulo%2BPortas%2C%2BPortuguese%2Bpeople%2B-%2BPortuguese%2Bphenotype.png&hash=8de265176dc88e2d5f49aebcd599603a)
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-cDbWnWphjjA%2FUoOnJkAe89I%2FAAAAAAAAIPY%2Fj23W5kdj9lM%2Fs1600%2FAlexandre%2BHerculano%2B-%2BAnt%2525C3%2525B3nio%2BSilva%25252C%2BPortuguese%2Bpeople%2B-%2BPortuguese%2Bphenotype.png&hash=3c48517ad6a9af59992439dc34490d75)
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-bO6-PEXMBIc%2FUnV82OKryyI%2FAAAAAAAAH48%2FGaPDvLWL-AI%2Fs1600%2FAntero%2Bde%2BQuental%2B-%2BRaul%2BMeireles%25252C%2BPortuguese%2Bpeople%2B-%2BPortuguese%2Bphenotype.png&hash=e0a2aad4383fd6ab9d68f1930eede2fb)
Enviado por: HSMW em Dezembro 22, 2013, 09:05:47 pm
Pobre Magalhães...
Enviado por: João Ratão em Dezembro 22, 2013, 09:18:50 pm
Citação de: "HSMW"
Citação de: "Cabecinhas"Lá por você falar português e saber português, não implica que seja português, porque esse seu racismo não se coaduna com o espírito português que conquistou o mundo.
Ora cá está o que diferencia o nacionalismo português dos restantes.
O nacionalista português não é racista. Por isso não nos confundam com neo-nazis, falangistas ou skinheads ou hammerskins!
Por foi quando os povos do Minho a Timor estiveram sobre a mesma bandeira que Portugal atingiu o expoente máximo da sua História.
Concordo.
Mas também é de realçar que os Nacionalistas que suportam o Multiculturalismo, são também aqueles que acabam por expressar a morte do mesmo.
Não há país sem população. População essa, que partilha a mesma raça, religião e cultura.
Portugal enquanto país foi feito de Nacionalismo.
Quer queiras aceitar como "Neo-nazis, falangistas ou skinheads ou hammerskins" ou não.
Herois nacionais tais como, Viriato, Dom Afonso Henriques, Dom João I, Dom João IV e etc. são de algum modo Nacionalistas (ou Racistas se assim quiseres) que se recusaram á submissão de Romanos, Mouros e Espanhois.
O grande Dom Afonso Henriques matava mouros.
É ele racista?
(https://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-9pk7icMNd5c%2FUm6_A-MzHvI%2FAAAAAAAAHkQ%2FdX18ulHJ_sI%2Fs1600%2FArtur%2BJos%25C3%25A9%2BGon%25C3%25A7alves%2B1955.JPG&hash=56151301a36ad1114217cc23f7d79043)
Enviado por: FoxTroop em Dezembro 23, 2013, 12:11:33 am
Enviado por: Cabeça de Martelo em Dezembro 23, 2013, 12:50:52 pm
PT, na minha família materna há duas características que saltam à vista, os lóbulos das orelhas são soltos e os olhos mudam de cor conforme a luminosidade. Vão de um castanho que mais parece preto a um olhos verde avelã. Isto é a minha costela saloia, da parte açoriana, tenho loiros (o meu pai), passando a mulheres de ancas bastante largas que mais parecem ter sangue africana. Enfim, sou um verdadeiro ET... mas Português!
O que está para trás... só Deus é que sabe e se estivesse em tempo de vacas gordas até fazia o teste genético para ver o que há para trás. Para quê? Pura curiosidade, acho que é algo inato no ser humano.
Enviado por: Edu em Dezembro 23, 2013, 04:25:27 pm
Depois é importante referir que a nacionalidade de uma pessoa é uma artificialidade imposta pela cultura humana, como foi dito e muito bem é uma questão emocional e em ultima estância algo que eu definiria como uma escolha. Uma escolha de um grupo de indivíduos que decide viver em conjunto com regras em comum, separados de outros grupos. Não pode assim haver uma raça Portuguesa ou raça Angolana. Pode sim existir uma identidade, sendo que essa identidade é fruto de uma escolha cultural em seguir certas regras e costumes, isso define um país.
Eu tenho orgulho em ser Português. Mas não por ser de pele branca e cabelo castanho. O meu orgulho vem das obras deste povo, das escolhas culturais que foram feitas ao longo do tempo, das regras, dos costumes. Identifico-me nas escolhas feitas pelos meus antepassados, não só aqueles de sangue mas antepassados na cultura, e pretendo toda a minha vida pertencer ao legado destas escolhas.
Isto é ser patriota, pois um país define-se pela cultura e pelas obras de um povo e não por cores de pele. Tudo o resto é parvoíce importada de outras culturas que não a Portuguesa.
Por isso caro João Ratão, o senhor não partilha a cultura da aceitação e miscigenação que fazem parte dos valores que historicamente os Portugueses vêm praticando, logo é o senhor que não pode ser classificado como Português.
Enviado por: Duarte em Dezembro 23, 2013, 06:44:16 pm
Citação de: "Edu"
Eu tenho orgulho em ser Português. Mas não por ser de pele branca e cabelo castanho. O meu orgulho vem das obras deste povo, das escolhas culturais que foram feitas ao longo do tempo, das regras, dos costumes. Identifico-me nas escolhas feitas pelos meus antepassados, não só aqueles de sangue mas antepassados na cultura, e pretendo toda a minha vida pertencer ao legado destas escolhas.
Isto é ser patriota, pois um país define-se pela cultura e pelas obras de um povo e não por cores de pele. Tudo o resto é parvoíce importada de outras culturas que não a Portuguesa.
Por isso caro João Ratão, o senhor não partilha a cultura da aceitação e miscigenação que fazem parte dos valores que historicamente os Portugueses vêm praticando, logo é o senhor que não pode ser classificado como Português.
x 2 :G-Ok:
Enviado por: FoxTroop em Dezembro 23, 2013, 07:17:24 pm
Citação de: "Duarte"
Citação de: "Edu"Eu tenho orgulho em ser Português. Mas não por ser de pele branca e cabelo castanho. O meu orgulho vem das obras deste povo, das escolhas culturais que foram feitas ao longo do tempo, das regras, dos costumes. Identifico-me nas escolhas feitas pelos meus antepassados, não só aqueles de sangue mas antepassados na cultura, e pretendo toda a minha vida pertencer ao legado destas escolhas.
Isto é ser patriota, pois um país define-se pela cultura e pelas obras de um povo e não por cores de pele. Tudo o resto é parvoíce importada de outras culturas que não a Portuguesa.
Por isso caro João Ratão, o senhor não partilha a cultura da aceitação e miscigenação que fazem parte dos valores que historicamente os Portugueses vêm praticando, logo é o senhor que não pode ser classificado como Português.
x 2 :G-Ok:
x 3
Enviado por: PereiraMarques em Dezembro 24, 2013, 12:59:44 am
Enviado por: Luso em Dezembro 24, 2013, 01:12:37 am
- Matem o troll!
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/4023419392/h96821CEF/)
Enviado por: FoxTroop em Dezembro 24, 2013, 12:50:46 pm
Citação de: "Luso"
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/4023419392/h96821CEF/)
Epá, avisem aí essa malta que, se alguém disparar, aquilo é capaz de dar num suicídio em massa
Enviado por: Cabecinhas em Dezembro 26, 2013, 10:03:07 am
Citação de: "PereiraMarques"
Não vou por os iconezihos, nem fazer citações múltiplas, mas realmente tenho de manifestar a minha concordância com a mensagem do Edu, nomeadamente nos seus últimos três parágrafos.
X2
Enviado por: Cabeça de Martelo em Novembro 27, 2014, 05:16:25 pm
Enviado por: Cabeça de Martelo em Dezembro 04, 2014, 02:08:07 pm
Danielle Steel é luso-descendente?!