[JNSA]

Actually, we here in Lisbon tend to look at porto, "affectionaly", as our last Overseas Colony, and would very willingly trade that bit of junk for OLIVENÇA, which is under spanish occupation (but that's another storyyyyy)

P44, you forgot about Madeira - they are getting ready to request their independence, creating the Theocratic Peoples Republic of Jardinistão...

[emarques]

According to their fearless leader, Madeira can't yet be independent. He says that's not possible because the successive governments of Portugal haven't given them enough money for that.  

[dremanu]

:oops:   Ok ok, so this may seem to be a ridiculously dumb question to you guys, but I have been wondering about this for forever, and have never received a straight answer.

What are the Portuguese considered to be in regards to race "names"?  My mom says white, but several people I've talked to have refused to believe that's true.  I read in a book once that Portugal is considered the least Latin of the Latin countries.  

My school is having a Hispanic Food Festival tomorrow, and there was an article about it in the school newspaper.  It talked about the Hispanic countries, and I noticed that they had mentioned Brazil!  I did NOT know Brazil was considered a Hispanic country.  I had always heard the word Hispanic was for Spanish-speaking countries, and we all know the official language of Brasil is Portuguese.  So really, would Portugal be considered "Hispanic"?  I didn't think so before, but it's always been a question in the back of my mind.  Or are Portuguese people considered "white"?

Ria:

We are most definitely NOT Hispanic...and the majority of us, are most definitely CAUCASIAN WHITE EUROPEAN people. We're not some "pure" race (if such a thing exists), but we have a commonality of genes that are found throughout Western Europe. Spanish people from Spain, are also not Hispanics, they are like the Portuguese, European Caucasians.

Hispanics, as understood within the US race classification system, are those people that came from Mexico, Central America, and Spanish Speaking South America, and that are of Amerindian descent and/or mixed European/Amerindian ancestry.

As for Latinos, this would include all the people that share a language that is a derivative of the Latin language, and cultural influences from the Roman empire, the Catholic Church, and I guess the Napoleonic code of law. However, I would not consider Latin a race, or a culture, is just a way to identify a group of different peoples that share some common elements.  Northen people, Germans/Swedes/Norwegians/Anglos, call themselves Anglo-Saxons, to distinguish their culture and linguistic influences from the Latin influences, although they have a lot of the same influences in their cultures, and vice-versa.

Here's an interesting map for everyone to take a look at:

[Luso]

"Eu apoio já a criação do Movimento dos Amigos dos Cónios...   "

Hum...
Defender... os conieiros...
Estranho. Muito estranho.

[P44]

"Eu apoio já a criação do Movimento dos Amigos dos Cónios...    

[P44]

emarques wrote:

Só que... não sou do Porto (cidade), nem sequer do Douro Litoral, e sou benfiquista.

In that case I forgive you...you can go in peace...

[emarques]

Dremanu, esse mapa, com esse verde todo... O que é que quer dizer? Somos marcianos? Ou lagartos? (NÂÂÂÂO!)

Alguém pode esclarecer o significado desse tal mapa de "haplogrupos"?

[papatango]

esse mapa, com esse verde todo... O que é que quer dizer? Somos marcianos? Ou lagartos?

 

Já estou a ficar com a pele escamada e acho que as antenas já se notam na cabeça...

[P44]

Safa!
Safa!
Safa!

[dremanu]

Dremanu, esse mapa, com esse verde todo... O que é que quer dizer? Somos marcianos? Ou lagartos? (NÂÂÂÂO!)

Alguém pode esclarecer o significado desse tal mapa de "haplogrupos"?

As cores é só uma forma de indicar os grupos de genes que os diferentes povos da europa compartilham entre si, e com outros povos fora da europa.

A cor verde indica o gene Hgl, que é principalmente associado com Celtas. O azul escuro com Germanico. O azul clarinho que se vê fortemente representado nos Bascos, é efetivamente o gene Basco. O cor-de-laranja claro, e o tom de azul mais escuro que se vê nalguma quantidade, creio que são os genes vindos dos Indo-Europeus. O negro é associado aos Beduínos, e o castanho aos Norte-Africanos.

Existe também um gene que é exclusivo Português, e que não se encontra em mais parte da Europa, ou do mundo. Aqui vai o texto do estudo que descreve esse facto.

===============================================

Relatedness among Basques, Portuguese, Spaniards, and Algerians studied by HLA allelic frequencies and haplotypes.

Arnaiz-Villena A, Martinez-Laso J, Gomez-Casado E, Diaz-Campos N, Santos P, Martinho A, Breda-Coimbra H.

Department of Immunology, Hospital 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Avda. Andalucia s/n. E-28041, Madrid, Spain.

HLA-A, -B, -DRB1, -DQA1, and DQB1 alleles were studied in Iberian and Algerian populations by serology and DNA sequence methodologies.

The genetic and cultural relatedness among Basques, Spaniards, and paleo-North Africans (Berbers or Tamazights) was established.

Portuguese people have also maintained a certain degree of cultural and ethnic-specific characteristics since ancient times. The results of the present HLA study in Portuguese populations show that they have features in common with Basques and Spaniards from Madrid: a high frequency of the HLA-haplotypes A29-B44-DR7 (ancient western Europeans), A2-B7-DR15 (ancient Europeans and paleo-North Africans), and A1-B8-DR3 (Europeans) are found as common characteristics.

Portuguese and Basques do not show the Mediterranean A33-B14-DR1 haplotype, suggesting a lower admixture with Mediterraneans; Spaniards and Algerians do have this haplotype in a relatively high frequency, indicating a more extensive Mediterranean genetic influence. The paleo-North African haplotype A30-B18-DR3 present in Basques, Algerians, and Spaniards is not found in Portuguese either.

The Portuguese have a characteristic unique among world populations: a high frequency of HLA-A25-B18-DR15 and A26-B38-DR13, which may reflect a still detectable founder effect coming from ancient Portuguese, i.e., oestrimnios and conios; Basques and Algerians also show specific haplotypes, A11-B27-DR1 and A2-B35-DR11, respectively, probably showing a relatively lower degree of admixture.

A neighbor-joining dendrogram place Basques, Portuguese, Spaniards, and Algerians closer to each other and more separated from other populations. Genetic, cultural, geological, and linguistic evidence also supports the hypothesis that people coming from a fertile Saharan area emigrated towards the north (southern Europe, Mesopotamia, the Mediterranean Islands, and the North African coast) when the climate changed drastically to hotter and drier ca 10 000 years B.C.

[dremanu]

Mais outro artigo interessante....

===============================================

We are not Celts at all but Galicians

BRIAN DONNELLY September 10 2004

CELTIC nations such as Scotland and Ireland have more in common with the Portuguese and Spanish than with the Celts of central Europe, according to a new academic report.Historians have long believed that the British Isles were swamped by a massive invasion of Iron Age Celts from central Europe around 500BC.However, geneticists at Trinity College in Dublin now claim that the Scots and Irish have more in common with the people of north-western Spain.

Dr Daniel Bradley, genetics lecturer at Trinity College, said a new study into Celtic origins revealed close affinities with the people of Galicia.He said: "It's well-known that there are cultural relations between the areas but now this shows there is much more. We think the links are much older than that of the Iron Age because it also shows affinities with the Basque region, which isn't a Celtic region."He added: "The links point towards other Celtic nations, in particular Scotland, but they also point to Spain.

"Historians believed the Celts, originally Indo-European, invaded the Atlantic islands in a massive migration 2500 years ago.But using DNA samples from people living in Celtic nations and other parts of Europe, geneticists at the university have drawn new parallels.Dr Bradley said it was possible migrants moved from the Iberian peninsula to Ireland as far back as 6000 years ago up until 3000 years ago."I don't agree with the idea of a massive Iron Age invasion that took over the Atlantic islands.

You can regard the ocean, rather than a barrier, as a communication route," Dr Bradley said.Archaeologists have also been questioning the links between the Celts of eastern France and southern Germany and the people of the British Isles and the new research appears to prove their theories.The Dublin study found that people in areas traditionally known as Celtic, such as Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Brittany and Cornwall, had strong links with each other and had more in common with people from the Iberian peninsula.

It also found people in Ireland have more in common with Scots than any other nation."What we would propose is that this commonality among the Atlantic facade is much older, 6000 years ago or earlier," Dr Bradley added.There are also close links between Scotland and Ireland dating back much further than the plantations of the 1600s when many Scots moved to Northern Ireland in search of fertile farming lands, the research showed.However, the researchers could not determine whether fair skin, freckles, red hair and fiery tempers truly are Celtic traits.

Stephen Oppenheimer, professor of clinical socio-medical sciences at Oxford, said that the Celts of western Scotland, Wales, Ireland and Cornwall were descended from an ancient people living on the Atlantic coast when Britain was still attached to mainland Europe, while the English were more closely related to the Germanic peoples of the interior.

He said: "The English are the odd ones out because they are the ones more linked to continental Europe. The Scots, the Irish, the Welsh and the Cornish are all very similar in their genetic pattern to the Basque."The study headed by Dr Bradley was published in the American Journal of Human Genetics.

[Ria]

Ah, you guys are great, thank you very much.

[emarques]

Obrigado pelas explicações, dremanu.

Interessante essa das relações com os irlandeses. Vai-se a ver, e as lendas irlandesas que dizem que os primeiros humanos na Irlanda vinham da Hispania (Mil Espáine) são bastante verdadeiras.

[J.Ricardo]

A minha implicancia toda em ser considerado latino, é que para os "arianos" dos EUA o termo latino e'igual a "cucaracha" (é assim que se escreve?). E cucaracha é pqp!!!

[FinkenHeinle]

A minha implicancia toda em ser considerado latino, é que para os "arianos" dos EUA o termo latino e'igual a "cucaracha" (é assim que se escreve?). E cucaracha é pqp!!!

Pra mim, não há problema...


Se eles são alienados, nós vamos nos balizar pela opinião alienada deles, americanos??

Eu não! Eu sou Latino-Americano, sim, e com orgulho!!! E direi, para quem quer que seja em voz alta...