Portugal = Hispanic? Latin? White?????

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rjales

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« Responder #30 em: Outubro 22, 2004, 12:30:51 pm »
Agora imaginem uma brasileira de origem alemã, de qual a familia ja esta no Brasil ha varias gerações. A rapariga é loira e tem os olhos azuis.

Chega aos EUA, é considerada "white-caucasian", mas para mim a gaja é latina.

O termo latino designa sobretudo uma cultura, e é bem mal empregado pelos americanos que querem assim categorisar uma parte de sua população. Acho que foi isto que quiz dizer João Ricardo.

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P44

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« Responder #31 em: Outubro 22, 2004, 01:26:10 pm »
Citação de: "João Ricardo"
A minha implicancia toda em ser considerado latino, é que para os "arianos" dos EUA o termo latino e'igual a "cucaracha" (é assim que se escreve?). E cucaracha é pqp!!!


Mas nos EUA existem "arianos" :mrgreen:

Que eu saiba, os ÚNICOS verdadeiros "americanos", são os Índios que ainda não foram chacinados, pelos grandes "lideres do mundo" :evil:
"[Os portugueses são]um povo tão dócil e tão bem amestrado que até merecia estar no Jardim Zoológico"
-Dom Januário Torgal Ferreira, Bispo das Forças Armadas
 

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J.Ricardo

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« Responder #32 em: Outubro 22, 2004, 09:49:09 pm »
Isso mesmo Rjales, eles querem definir o termo latino como uma raça, o que não é, latino é uma pessoa nascida em um país que sofreu influência da cultura latina, ou seja, brasileiro, chileno, cubano, argentino, português e até um angolano, por que não? Afinal estes também sofreram um culturalização latina, tá certo, foi uma cultura imposta a ferro e fogo, mas isso é outra história...
Então quando um moçambicano negro chegar nos EUA como ele será classificado? Como um latino ou um africano? E para colocar mais lenha na foqueira, a esposa do candidato a presidente dos EUA John Kerry é latina ou africana? Ou "white-caucasian"? Ou calcaisana-latina-africana? Ou "viajando mais ainda na maionese", ela é afro-americana? :)
 

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P44

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« Responder #33 em: Outubro 25, 2004, 09:59:36 am »
Citação de: "João Ricardo"
Isso mesmo Rjales, eles querem definir o termo latino como uma raça, o que não é, latino é uma pessoa nascida em um país que sofreu influência da cultura latina, ou seja, brasileiro, chileno, cubano, argentino, português e até um angolano, por que não? Afinal estes também sofreram um culturalização latina, tá certo, foi uma cultura imposta a ferro e fogo, mas isso é outra história...
Então quando um moçambicano negro chegar nos EUA como ele será classificado? Como um latino ou um africano? E para colocar mais lenha na foqueira, a esposa do candidato a presidente dos EUA John Kerry é latina ou africana? Ou "white-caucasian"? Ou calcaisana-latina-africana? Ou "viajando mais ainda na maionese", ela é afro-americana? :)


Afro-Americana-Albina... :mrgreen:
"[Os portugueses são]um povo tão dócil e tão bem amestrado que até merecia estar no Jardim Zoológico"
-Dom Januário Torgal Ferreira, Bispo das Forças Armadas
 

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papatango

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« Responder #34 em: Dezembro 23, 2005, 10:56:50 am »
O tema histórico continua aqui, sob o título
"Sobre a península pós romana"

http://www.forumdefesa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2822&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

A questão étnica/hispanic etc... deve naturalmente ser continuada aqui.

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É muito mais fácil enganar uma pessoa, que explicar-lhe que foi enganada ...
 

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JoseMFernandes

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« Responder #35 em: Dezembro 23, 2005, 11:45:44 am »
Salvo melhor opiniao, e sem de modo algum querer generalizar, uma coisa me parece certa, este tipo de discussao e raciocinio que vem sendo aqui desenvolvido apenas me parece ter acolhimento no Ocidente.Tenho poucas duvidas que os chineses, japoneses, "indianos", coreanos, vietnamitas ou outros, tenham alguma duvida ou preconceito ao identificarem  as pessoas de origem comunitaria diferente da sua como "estrangeiras", independentemente de terem nascido e  viverem, mesmo ha mais de uma geraçao nos seus paises ou regioes.E o mesmo se passa  basicamente nas suas respectivas comunidades espalhadas pelo mundo.
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dremanu

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« Responder #36 em: Janeiro 16, 2006, 10:14:36 pm »
Há uns tempos atrás meti aqui o sumário de um artigo que descreve as diferenças entre os povos da península Ibérico. Aqui está o artigo completo.  

Iberia: Population genetics, anthropology, and linguistics

Arnaiz-Villena, Antonio

Abstract Basques, Portuguese, Spaniards, and Algerians have been studied for HLA and mitochondrial DNA markers, and the data analysis suggests that pre-Neolithic gene flow into Iberia came from ancient white North Africans (Hamites). The Basque language has also been used to translate the Iberian-Tartesian language and also Etruscan and Minoan Linear A. Physical anthropometry of Iberian Mesolithic and Neolithic skeletons does not support the demic replacement in Iberia of preexisting Mesolithic people by Neolithic people bearing new farming technologies from Europe and the Middle East. Also, the presence of cardial impressed pottery in western Mediterranean Europe and across the Maghreb (North Africa) coasts at the beginning of the Neolithic provides good evidence of pre-Neolithic circum-Mediterranean contacts by sea. In addition, predynastic Egyptian El-Badari culture (4,500 years ago) is similar to southern Iberian Neolithic settlements with regard to pottery and animal domestication. Taking the genetic, linguistic, anthropological, and archeological evidence together with the documented Saharan area desiccation starting about 10,000 years ago, we believe that it is possible that a genetic and cultural pre-Neolithic flow coming from southern Mediterranean coasts existed toward northern Mediterranean areas, including at least Iberia and some Mediterranean islands. This model would substitute for the demic diffusion model put forward to explain Neolithic innovations in Western Europe.

KEY WORDS: HLA, mtDNA, IBERIA, BASQUES, PORTUGUESE, SPANIARDS, ALGERIANS, TAMAZIGHTS, GUANCHES, DEMIC DIFFUSION, ETRUSCANS, MINOANS

Iberian populations have been studied from genetic, anthropological, and linguistic points of view (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994; Jackes et al. 1997a; ArnaizVillena and Alonso-Garcia 1998). Basically, 2 emergent and different theories have been raised: ( 1 ) Ancient Iberian populations share a genetic and cultural background with Caucasoid paleo-North Africans and with other pre-Neolithic Mediterraneans. No peopling replacement is found in the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition. Basques belong to the paleo-Iberian stock, and their language was spoken by Iberians before the Roman invasion. (2) Ancient Iberians were mostly replaced in the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition by more culturally advanced farmers coming from the east into Iberia through the Pyrenees Mountains (demic diffusion model). No North African genetic background is considered.

Here, we put forth our own and others' results from 3 different disciplines (genetics, anthropology and archeology, and linguistics) to show that the demic diffusion model cannot be valid for Iberia.

Populations

The present-day Iberian genetic pool has been influenced by many major populations and immigrations, starting with the Paleolithic Iberian population, which already existed by 50,000 B.C. Later, this population painted the Altamira caves at about 20,000 B.c. North Africans entered the Iberian region between 20,000 and 8,000 B.C. They were followed by the Saharans, who arrived between 8,000 and 4,000 B.C., probably driven by the drastic climatic change to a hotter and drier environment. These Saharan changes have been documented by the Columbia space shuttle through an extensive collection of infrared photographs [analyzed by McCauley et al. (1982)]; now covered by the biggest desert on Earth, the area had once overflowed with rivers and lakes. This environment could have supported a large pre-Neolithic population in this vast area [8,600,000 km^sup 2^, an area bigger than the United States (Seely 1993)]. The inhabitants would have lived in a typical savanna (or in a more humid environment with the associated animals and vegetation). Recently, Kutzbach et al. (1996) lent support to these pre-Neolithic Saharan climatic changes by finding slight variations in the Earth's rotational axis, which led to a deviation of humid monsoons and to a lack of rain in the Sahara Desert.

There were also people coming from central Europe (also generically called Celt invasions), during the first millennium B.c.; nowadays, the importance of the Celtic population input in Spain during this first millennium is under hot debate, and there is a tendency to minimize it. In fact, only cultural and indirect historical references (but not direct evidence) of these invasions exist, particularly references by classical historians who usually cite secondhand and sometimes contradictory references. For example, Herodotus, Livy, Polybius, and Estrabon mention Keltoi or Keltiberians in nonprecise contexts (Burillo-Mozola 1998).

Islamic peoples (generically called Arabs), who had invaded northern Africa at the end of the 7th century, entered Spain at the beginning of the 8th century. They professed the Islamic religion, but the people coming into Spain were composed of a paleo-North African majority [Hamites or Berberspeaking-people, i.e., Tamazights (Kinder and Hilgemann 1970; Gonem 1996)]. Tamazights are now distributed over Morocco, Mauritania, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt (up to the Siwa Oasis). Nomadic Tamazights and Berber-speaking Tuaregs inhabit southern Algeria, southwest Libya, northern Niger, and Mali. At least 30 million people speak Berber dialects around and within the present-day Sahara Desert in the mentioned countries; in particular, about 30% of the population of Algeria and Morocco speak Berber. They are descendants of the pre-Neolithic Saharan people, who have remained in the mountains or desert relatively isolated from Arabic influence (Mockhtar 1990). The Berber component in urban centers (e.g., Algiers) may also be a majority now (Julien 1961; Rachid 1994; Brett and Fentress 1997).

Other invasions (see Table 1) were mostly military and/or cultural and did not have a significant bearing on the Iberian genetic pool.

Although the data shown in Table 1 refer to Spain, Portugal has had a parallel population increase and has approximately 10 million inhabitants at present. However, the degree of genetic similarity of the Portuguese to other ethnic groups of the Iberian Peninsula (Basques) and to Spaniards and paleoNorth Africans is not certain. Although Tartesian language and art are also found in southern Portugal (Figure 1), it is possible that the Paleolithic tribes that populated Portugal were distinct from other Iberians. These are the Oestrimnios (northern Portugal) and Cinetes or Conios (southern Portugal). The Paleolithic peoples were also invaded by North Africans (see Table 1), and their degree of relatedness to Tartesians (Ramos-Oliveira 1971a) is uncertain. Invasions of the ancient Portuguese people by central Europeans (Celts) during the first millennium B.C. could have taken place and given rise to the Lusitanians, who were first defined as the more or less unified western Iberian warriors who fought against the Roman invaders (Ramos-Oliveira 197 la).

The population of Africa in pre-Neolithic times (7,000-3,000 B.C.) has been classified into 5 main ethnic groups: (1) Hamites (Hamite-speaking people) of the Mediterranean and Red Sea coasts; they were white people who have been further subdivided into Berbers and Egyptians (n = 100,000) and white-black Ethiopians (n = 100,000); (2) blacks of the Guinea Gulf (n = 250,000); (3) black Nilo-Saharans (n = 250,000), who inhabit the present-day Sahara Desert and Nilo River; (4) black Pygmies of the southwestern African coast (n = 200,000); and (5) black Bushmen of the southern and southeastern African coasts (n = 350,000) (Figure 2A) (McEvedy and Jones 1978). In pharaonic Africa (3,000 B.C.) population numbers had suffered drastic changes. Agricultural Egypt had 1 million people and the rest of Africa (nonagricultural hunters) had 1.2 million altogether. By A.D. 400 blacks from the Guinea Gulf had overwhelmed central and southern Africa, reduced the number of Bushmen, and almost eliminated Pygmies (Figure 2B) (McEvedy and Jones 1978).

Drastic climatic changes had dried northern Africa by around 8,0004,000 B.C. The forest line moved south toward the equator from about the 16th parallel by 3,000 B.C. (Figure 2C) (Bodmer and Cavalli-Sforza 1976). By then, the Sahara Desert had similar characteristics to the present-day Sahara, and strong migrations toward the north probably sent people to the Iberian Peninsula and Mediterranean and Canary Islands; the first Iberians and Canary Islands Guanche may in part come from these displaced paleoNorth African inhabitants (Hamite Berbers) or may be closely related (Martinez-Laso et al. 1995).

The population of Algeria has followed the general Maghreb demographic movements (McEvedy and Jones 1978). In Neolithic times a scattering of Berber people (a few hundred thousand) existed there. However, they did not remain stuck at a simple Neolithic level, and probably, like other Mediterraneans, were evolving through the Bronze and Iron ages (Brett and Fentress 1997). By 1,000 B.C. Phoenicians from Lebanon set up Carthage (Tunisia) and were later overthrown by the Romans in 146 B.C. At this time there were 100,000 Phoenicians and 500,000 Berbers in Tunisia plus another 2.5 million Berbers in the rest of North Africa. By A.D. 200 Algeria had no more than 2 million people. During the 7th century, Arabs invaded Algeria and mixed with Berbers, who were the majority (Julien 1961); some researchers postulate that most of the modern Saharan and Maghreb peoples are not Arabs but Berbers who speak Arabic and have a Berber genetic background (Rachid 1994). Demographically, Algeria (and Maghreb) has been stable until recently, when France and Spain left their colonies. The Algerian population was 9 million in 1950 and is more than 25 million at present.

Genetics

One of the recurrent problems of Spanish ethnography is the still unresolved origin of the Basques; although some researchers postulate that the Basques are a relative isolate of the ancient original Iberian population (Humboldt 1921; Michelena 1964), others put forward the hypothesis that Basques came from afar (the Caucasus) (Laffon 1993). However, these theories are mostly based on linguistic data. In addition, studies of blood groups (Mourant 1947) and serological HLA markers (Dausset et al. 1972; Mouzon et al. 1979; Regueiro and Arnaiz-Villena 1988) were done in the past decades. A high phenotypic frequency of Rh-negative types and a low frequency of the B blood group were regarded as distinctive of Basque populations (Mourant 1947); however, these frequencies have been found to be a general characteristic of other neighboring Western European populations, as detailed by Roychoudhury and Nei (1988). Reported Rh-negative gene frequencies (cde) are 0.44 for Spanish Basques, 0.54 for Portuguese, 0.43 for the Isle of Man, 0.38 for Spaniards, 0.41 for French, 0.42 for Irish, and 0.39 for English; reported B frequencies are 0.03 for Basques, 0.05 for Portuguese, 0.07 for Irish, 0.06 for Spaniards, 0.06 for French, and 0.06 for English. Thus frequencies of Basque Rh-negative and B blood groups are not significantly different from the surrounding populations, although a distinctive effect might be expected because of the Basques' historical lack of substantial admixture with neighbors and invaders (Caro-Baroja 1981; Roman del Cerro 1993, pp. 33-34).

The HLA system is one of the most polymorphic genetic systems and is widely used to identify individuals (Tsuji et al.1992). HLA discriminating ability can also be used to single out populations; particular alleles appear only in particular populations (e.g., *A36 and *A43 in black Africans) or have high frequency in particular populations, and the strong linkage disequilibrium between HLA alleles at neighboring loci shows that certain combinations (HLA haplotypes) are characteristic of certain living populations. Thus HLA alleles are a unique tool to study the origins of relatively isolated groups because the characteristic HLA allele frequencies have not been completely diluted with time; less discrimination might be achieved if HLA allele frequencies were mixed for calculation with other less polymorphic allelic systems.

Similarly, HLA-A and HLA-B (Dausset and Colombani 1973) and HLA-DR (Imanishi, Wakisaka et al. 1992) allele frequencies have been used to individualize populations. Dendrograms have been constructed according to differences in HLA allele frequencies and the population genetic distances reported at the 11th International Histocompatibility Workshop (Imanishi, Wakisaka et al. 1992; Imanishi, Akaza et al,1992). The obtained ethnic group clusters (roughly, Europeans, Africans, Asians, and Australian Aborigines) fit well with the classical anthropologically defined ethnic groups. However, the analysis is still incomplete, and further analysis, including HLA-DR and HLADQ DNA genotypes and characteristic complete HLA haplotypes of different populations (Imanishi, Wakisaka et al. 1992), are necessary.

Others studies (Degos and Dausset 1974; Cambon-Mouzon et al. 1982) and our own previous research (Rodriguez-Cordoba et al. 1981; ArnaizVillena et al. 1981; Regueiro and Arnaiz-Villena 1988) have pointed out that the HLA A30-B18-DR3-BF*F,I haplotype was a marker for Basques, Sardinians, and Spaniards. Its frequency in other populations was significantly lower, except for white North Africans; this suggested a paleo-North African/ Iberian origin for part of the Basque gene pool (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1981). More recently, complete HLA data on Basques and Spaniards (MartinezLaso et al. 1995) have been analyzed by DNA indirect sequencing and compared for the first time with data from a North African population (Algerians) with at least a 70% Berber component (Julien 1951; Benmamar et al. 1993; Rachid 1994; Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1995). Basques were chosen at Hospital Nuestra Senora de Aranzazu (San Sebastian) from a group of unrelated healthy blood donors only if they had characteristic Basque surnames in the last 3 generations. Figure 3 shows the relatedness between Iberian, North African, European, and other populations (Martinez-Laso et al. 1995; ArnaizVillena et al. 1995, 1997) based on a neighbor-joining dendrogram constructed with the allele frequencies obtained by DNA typing and sequencing (HLA-DR and HLA-DQ DNA) and by HLA-A and HLA-B serology. The figure shows that Portuguese are close to Basques from San Sebastian, with a distance similar to that of Spaniards from Madrid (Figure 3). Algerians, Portuguese, and Basques also show that they are more related to one another than to other Europeans; it is remarkable that Iberians and Algerians cluster together with relatively high bootstraps, particularly in the case of Portuguese and Basques. This supports the conclusion that Iberians and Algerians are more closely related to each other than to other Europeans. The fairly long Basque and Sardinian branches may reflect the relative isolation that they have experienced among Europeans (Martinez-Laso et al. 1995); this tends to increase the frequency of certain alleles already present in the founder population (e.g., HLA A*30, B*18, DR*3). These results had been suggested by Imanishi, Wakisaka et al. (1992) and Imanishi, Akaza et al. (1992) using HLA-A and HLA-B alleles and fewer individuals. It was found that Iberians cluster closer to Africans than to Europeans: Middle Eastern and Maghreb (e.g., Algerians) populations were not included because of a lack of data. These results show that Europeans cluster together with the exception of Spaniards, Portuguese, Basques, and Sardinians, who cluster closer to African populations.

The HLA allele frequency studies have also included more specific HLA haplotype studies to which a possible origin may be assigned (Table 2).

HLA Haplotypes. The A *2-Cw*7-B*7-DRBI *1501-DQA1 *0102-DQB1 *0602 haplotype is common to French Basques (haplotype frequency, 0.036), Cornish (0.036), Austrians (0.026), and Britons (0.023) (Imanishi, Akaza et al. 1992) and does not appear in high frequency in northern Europeans, such as Scandinavians, or in other Mediterranean populations. This haplotype is mainly found in England, Spain, Portugal, and northern Africa.

The A*33-Cw*8-B*14-DRBI *0102-DQA*0101-DQB]*0501 haplotype shows the highest frequency in Armenians (0.031) and is also high in frequency or present in other Mediterranean European populations such as Sardinians (0.027), French (0.014), Greeks (0.011), and Italians (0.007) (Imanishi, Akaza et al. 1992). This haplotype does not appear in Portuguese and Basques and has a much lower frequency in northern European populations (Martinez-Laso et al. 1995). The fact that Armenians (and not Basques) bear this marker does not support a theory that Basques and Armenians are related and have a common descent. Armenians may have acquired this haplotype during their historical Middle East Mediterranean settlements in the Middle Ages (Martinez-Laso et al. 1995). Alternatively, this haplotype may be of Armenian origin.

The A *I-Cw*7-B*8-DRB1 *0301-DQA1 *0501-DQB1 *0201 haplotype frequency is similar in British (0.029) and Danish (0.034). Germans (0.048), Austrians (0.053), and Yugoslavians (0.077) show higher frequencies (Imanishi, Akaza et al. 1992). This haplotype may be of Indo-European-Celtic origin (Degos and Dausset 1974).

The A*30-Cw*5-B*18-DRBl *0301-DQA] *0501-DQBI *0201 haplotype is found in Sardinians (0.114) and French Basques (0.047) (Imanishi, Akaza et al. 1992). Its frequency is much lower or absent in other European populations. This haplotype was defined as Iberian/paleo-North African (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1981). Bouali and co-workers found this haplotype to be most frequent in Algerians; it was described as B*18-BF*Fl (ArnaizVillena et al. 1995).

The A*29-C*blank-B*44-DRBI *0701-DQA1 *020] haplotype is found at a frequency of 0.054 in Cornish but Danish, French, and Italians show lower frequencies (

The A*3-Cw*7-B*7-DRB1 *1501-DQA1*0102-DQB1 *0602 haplotype has been defined as a northern European haplotype (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1995) because of its high frequencies in Danish (0.036), Austrians (0.032), Czechs (0.025), and Yugoslavians (0.024) and also in French (0.018) and Italians (0.006) (Imanishi, Akaza et al. 1992).

The A*25-C*blank-B*18-DRB1 *1501-DQAI *0102-DQBI *0602 haplotype is present in the United States (0.009) and in Brazilians (0.007), probably because of Portuguese ancestors (Imanishi, Akaza et al. 1992).

The A*26-C*blank-B*38-DRBI *1301-DQAI*0103-DQBI *0603 haplotype has not been described in other populations (Imanishi, Akaza et al. 1992).

Portuguese populations have features in common with Basques and Spaniards from Madrid; high frequencies of the HLA haplotypes A *29-B*44DR*7 (ancient western Europeans), A*2-B*7-DR*15 (ancient Europeans and paleo-North Africans), and A*1-B*8-DR*3 (Europeans) are common characteristics. Portuguese and Basques do not show the Mediterranean A*33B*14-DR*1 haplotype, suggesting a lower admixture with Mediterraneans; Spaniards and Algerians do have this haplotype in a relatively high frequency, indicating a more extensive Mediterranean genetic influence. The paleoNorth African haplotype A*30-B*18-DR*3 present in Basques, Algerians, and Spaniards is not found in Portuguese either. The Portuguese have a characteristic HLA make-up among world populations: high frequencies of A *25B*18-DR*IS and A*26-B*38-DR*13, which may reflect a still detectable founder effect coming from ancient Portuguese (Oestrimnios and Conios). Basques and Algerians also show specific haplotypes, A*l-B*27-DR*l and A*2-B*35-DR*lI, respectively, probably showing a relatively lower degree of admixture and a founder effect.

A recent HLA study (Izaabel et al. 1998) in Moroccan Berbers supports our conclusion that paleo-North Africans are genetically closer to Spaniards than to other Europeans. In addition, Comas et al. (1998) studied the HLA profiles in a Basque population sample and stated that a common origin for Spaniards, Basques, and North Africans was not found. This conclusion was not based on the data: (1) Basque HLA frequencies and haplotypes do not significantly differ from previously published results (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1981; Imanishi, Wakisaka et al. 1992; Martinez-Laso et al. 1995; Izaabel et al. 1998). (2) When Comas et al. (1998) studied previously published data on Algerians [from Arnaiz-Villena et al. (1995)], only a partial analysis was done; Comas et al. (1998) presented a neighbor-joining tree from arbitrarily chosen populations (Figure 2), but our own data on Algerians are not included in the analysis of 18 worldwide populations (Comas et al. 1998, Figure 1) or with other populations in the principal components analysis (Comas et al. 1998, Figure 3); also, heterogeneous data from populations that were HLA typed at different degrees of allelism were inappropriately mixed.

In summary, HLA data from several different research groups support North African/Iberian/Basque relatedness: (1) Imanishi, Akaza et al. (1992) and Imanishi, Wakisaka et al. (1992) used results of 126 different ethnic groups studied by 186 laboratories distributed worldwide for the 1I th International Histocompatibility Workshop; (2) Arnaiz-Villena et al. (1981) found that Basques, Sardinians, and Spaniards from Madrid shared common HLA haplotypes with Berber populations; (3) these results have been further confirmed by studies of HLA genes by indirect DNA sequencing techniques (Martinez-Laso et al. 1995; Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1995, 1997; Clayton and Lonjou 1997); (4) a Moroccan-Swiss-French group has also found relatedness between Iberians and Moroccan Berbers (Izaabel et al. 1998).

On the other hand, mitochondrial DNA evidence (Corte-Real et al. 1996) shows that the genetic input of northern Africa to the Iberian Peninsula is as important as the gene flow from the rest of Europe. Also, recent mtDNA sequence variation analyses have revealed that a major Paleolithic population expansion from the Atlantic zone (southwestern Europe) may have occurred 10,000-15,000 years ago, after the last glacial maximum. An mtDNA marker for this expansion, haplogroup V, was identified and was observed only in northwestern Europe and North Africa. It reaches high frequencies in some Iberian populations and is also common among the Berbers of North Africa. Thus this distribution indicates that, in contrast to haplogroup H, haplogroup V did not originate in the Near East but in either Europe or North Africa (Richards et al. 1996; Torroni et al. 1998). Also, Pinto et al. (1996) observed that most of the female transmitted mitochondrial genes found at present in the Canary Islands population came from the Berber first Canary Islands population (Guanche) and that most of the paternally transmitted genes come from European conquerors. This fits with historical events: Most Guanche males were killed or sold in Valencia and Sevilla by Spanish conquerors during the 15th century; European males mixed thereafter with Guanche females. In addition, Y-chromosome polymorphisms also support a common origin for Basques and Sardinians (Santachiara-Benerecetti and Semino 1996), who may also share a paleo-North African origin (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1981) together with Etruscans and Minoans from Crete (Arnaiz-Villena and Alonso-Garcia 1998).

Physical Anthropology

Skeletal studies from Mesolithic and Neolithic samples have been extensively carried out by Meiklejohn et al. (1984), Lubell et al. (1994), Lalueza-Fox (1996), and Jackes et al. (1997a). Jackes et al. (1997a) analyzed the agricultural transition by using dental and skeletal variables obtained from partial data. They performed an exhaustive analysis of their own and other data on Mesolithic and Neolithic Iberian skeletal parameters. In particular, they analyzed skulls from skeletons labeled either male or female, because sexual dimorphism did not alter significantly across the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition. A scatter plot of 8 craniometric variables from 20 skeletons from Iberia (Spain: Majorca, Tarragona, Basque Country, Catalonia, Cantabria, Barcelona, Burgos, Castilla, Andalucia, Granada; Portugal; Eira, Pedrinha, Escoural, Melides, Cabezo da Aruda, Moita de Sehastiao) showed that there was no significant change in the studied variables between Neolithic and Mesolithic samples.

Both, Lalueza-Fox (1996) and Jackes et al. (1997a,b) agreed that stature is similar in Neolithic and Mesolithic Iberian skeletons. The statures are consistent with the observed trend of gradually decreasing stature in European populations from the upper Paleolithic through the Neolithic, with a subsequent stature increase after the Neolithic (Meiklejohn et al. 1984). Dental caries rates do not show a discontinuity either, and the observed reduction rate in the Neolithic shows complex dietary changes that started during the Mesolithic and continued into the Neolithic (Lubell et al. 1994).

Thus the demic diffusion model put forward by Clark (1965) and Renfrew (1973), which implies an important (or complete) replacement of the population, is not sustainable for Iberia, where no revolutionary way of life changes or physical anthropometry and diet differences were found. However, the Iberian diet began to change soon after 8,000 years B.P. (beginning of the Mesolithic) and has continued to change (Lubell et al. 1994). This dietary change has been gradual and does not coincide with the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition.

Linguistics and Conclusions

Languages in populations have been shown to correlate roughly with specific genetic markers in the respective population analysis (Cavalli-Sforza 1996; Santachiara-Benerecetti and Semino 1996). At a recent systematics meeting in Madrid (February 23-24, 1998, organized by J. Klein and A. Arnaiz-Villena), M. Nei recommended to L.L. Cavalli-Sforza the use of statistics for matching languages with populations defined by genetic markers. It is indeed an almost impossible task, because many languages have been lost or subsumed and most populations are far from being genetically well defined. Although language "steamrollers" (Diamond 1997) are clear in America because sound historical documentation is available, their existence in other parts of the world is doubtful, particularly in western Europe, where historical documents are not available. It has been calculated that about 60-80 million Amerindians died in the century following the European discovery of the Americas in 1492 (Dobbins 1993); also, cultures and languages were systematically destroyed and replaced by those of the invaders (Crawford 1998). In other words, that steamrollers erase languages and cultures in western Europe according to the classical demic diffusion model (Gimbutas 1963; Renfrew 1987) is difficult to sustain nowadays.

The demic diffusion model hypothesizes that Neolithic farmers who were coming from the Middle East were slowly reaching Mesolithic western Europe. First, there is no evidence of Neolithic replacement of people on the Iberian Peninsula. On the contrary, the suggested conformity of Iberian craniometric data to a demic diffusion model simply does not exist; Mesolithic and Neolithic bones show clear continuity (Jackes et al.1997b). Second, recent genetic data in North Africans, Spaniards, Basques, Portuguese, and Cretans (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1981, 1997, 1999; Corte-Real et al. 1996; Izaabel et al. 1998) support substantial gene flow from paleo-North African populations to Iberia. Also, common extended HLA haplotypes between presentday North African and Iberian populations, including Basques, exist (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 1997; Izaabel et al. 1998).

Third, archeological studies at the mouth of the Guadalquivir River (La Marisrnilla, Sevilla) (Escacena-Carrasco 1996) showed that domesticated bovines and cats came with people from Africa about 5,000 years ago; in addition, the predynastic Egyptian El-Badari culture (4,500 years ago) is similar to many southern Iberian Neolithic settlements in pottery and animal domestication (Escacena-Carrasco 1996). Cardial impressed pottery is common and contemporary in western Europe and North African coasts. The coastal distribution of cardial impressed pottery in western Mediterranean Europe (Lewthwaite 1986) and across the Maghreb (Gilman 1992; Lubell et al.1992) provides good evidence of circum-Mediterranean contacts by sea. Both ElBadari and Iberian Neolithic people probably came from the drying Sahara area (McCauley et al. 1982). Indeed, Tassili cave paintings in the middle of the Sahara Desert (southeastern Argelia) show domesticated bovine about 1,000 years before documented Neolithic agricultural practices starting in the Middle East (Cavalli-Sforza 1996).

Fourth, the Iberian language has now been deciphered and has been found to be similar to Etruscan and Minoan Linear A (Alonso-Garcia 1996, 1998; Arnaiz-Villena and Alonso-Garcia 1998, 1999). Basque (and its Spanish translation) has been the Rosetta stone. Table 3 lists words compiled by Arnaiz-Villena and Alonso-Garcia (1998) that are cognates from a common origin. The Basque language had also been related to North Caucasian and to Etruscan languages (Bengston 1991; Ruhlen 1991; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994).

Thus, the question that Jared Diamond posed to Terrell et al. (1998)Do Terrell et al. believe all Europeans spoke a single tongue, Basque, until a few thousand years ago?can be answered. The answer is, It is possible. Caucasians, Etruscans, and the first Minoans from Crete spoke a language similar to Basque and Berber; probably, the origin of this language came from the Saharan people who were forced to migrate northward in pre-Neolithic times when desiccation started (McCauley et al. 1982).

Acknowledgments This research was supported in part by the Spanish Ministry of Education through grants PM57-95 and PM96-21, by FIS through grant 94-0367, by the Ramon Areces Fundacion, and by Comunidad de Madrid through grants 06-7097 and 8.3/14/98. We thank Isabel Gonzalez Cham6n for her technical skill at preparing the manuscript.

Received 4 August 1998; revision received 10 December 1998.

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ANTONIO ARNAIZ-VIL,LENA, JORGE MARTINEZ-LASO,1 AND JORGE ALONSOGARCIA

' Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, Hospital 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, 28041 Madrid, Spain.

2Fundacion de Estudios Genlticos y Linguisticos, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain.

Copyright Wayne State University Press Oct 1999
"Esta é a ditosa pátria minha amada."
 

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sierra002

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« Responder #37 em: Janeiro 17, 2006, 11:09:23 am »
Si los portugueses son una raza diferente, muchos españoles lo celebrarian.

Dejando chistes de lado... ¡Hay que ver lo que eso le gustaría a algunos!
 

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dremanu

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« Responder #38 em: Janeiro 17, 2006, 06:40:26 pm »
Citação de: "sierra002"
Si los portugueses son una raza diferente, muchos españoles lo celebrarian.

Dejando chistes de lado... ¡Hay que ver lo que eso le gustaría a algunos!


Não somos uma raça diferente, mas sim possuímos genes que não se encontram na população de Espanha.
"Esta é a ditosa pátria minha amada."
 

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papatango

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« Responder #39 em: Janeiro 18, 2006, 08:27:38 pm »
Já li este (ou parte) deste artigo, e fico com uma dúvida.

Dá-me a impressão de que os autores consideraram os espanhóis, os portugueses e os bascos, e fico a pensar que o artigo tem como objectivo explicar que os bascos são diferentes dos espanhóis.

A argumentação parece ser:
Se os portugueses têm genes diferentes dos espanhóis e são outro país, então os bascos, que também têm genes diferentes, tambám são um país.

Normalmente desconfio de artigos, onde se apresenta a espanha como uma entidade uniforme. Eu pessoalmente, pelo meu conhecimento da realidade, tenho dificuldade em aceitar que os genes dos portugueses, especialmente os que se situam a norte do Douro, sejam muito diferentes dos galegos. Não faz sentido que seja de outra maneira.

Ao mesmo tempo, as diferenças entre portugueses e castelhanos, já são perfeitamente normais, e nós vemo-las a olho nú. Relativamente aos antigos "iberos" ou seja os habitantes do oriente peninsular nem se fala.

Não posso como é obvio por o estudo em causa, mas posso apontar o que considero ser um ponto pouco explicado. Acredito que os portugueses sejam diferentes de grande parte dos espanhóis, mas não de todos eles.

De qualquer forma, o estudo explica, ou ajuda a explicar muita coisa. Portugal foi, até à segunda guerra mundial uma ilha na Europa. O nosso comércio fazia-se por mar, e estavamos isolados do continente pela Espanha.

Antes, durante a idade média e a renascença, o comércio de Portugal, era essencialmente com o que hoje é a Holanda, a Bélgica, a França, parte da Alemanha, o País de Gales e a Inglaterra, que se encontravam muito mais perto, em numero de dias de viagem.
Estas regiões sempre foram muito mais importantes para nós que as regiões mediterrânicas, onde mantinhamos especialmente relações com as principais cidades-estado da peninsula itálica e com a Coroa de Aragão, até por esta também se extender pelo sul da peninsula itálica e pouco mais.

Portanto, desde sempre, estivemos dissociados do mediterrâneo e das culturas mediterrânicas, as quais estavam demasiado longe, e implicavam passar por um mar infestado de piratas muçulmanos, o que tornava os produtos mais caros,

A realidade genética, apenas vem confirmar o que a realidade Histórica nos diz.

Cumprimentos
É muito mais fácil enganar uma pessoa, que explicar-lhe que foi enganada ...
 

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sierra002

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« Responder #40 em: Janeiro 18, 2006, 08:43:23 pm »
Editado.
Es mejor no darle más cuerda a este tema.
 

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P44

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« Responder #41 em: Janeiro 18, 2006, 09:02:06 pm »
Citação de: "sierra002"
Editado.
Es mejor no darle más cuerda a este tema.


Oh sierra

Deixa-o tar , ele é assim desde pequenino, deve ter bebido muito leite espanhol e fez-lhe cólicas :wink:
"[Os portugueses são]um povo tão dócil e tão bem amestrado que até merecia estar no Jardim Zoológico"
-Dom Januário Torgal Ferreira, Bispo das Forças Armadas
 

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papatango

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« Responder #42 em: Janeiro 18, 2006, 09:23:56 pm »
Citação de: "Sierra002"
Editado.
Es mejor no darle más cuerda a este tema.
Não há nenhuma razão para não argumentar desde que haja argumentações ou pontos de vista minimamente fundados.

Por outro lado escrever um tópico com "Editado" dá a impressão de que alguém anda a censurar alguém, o que não corresponde obviamente à verdade.

Cumprimentos
É muito mais fácil enganar uma pessoa, que explicar-lhe que foi enganada ...
 

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sierra002

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« Responder #43 em: Janeiro 18, 2006, 09:48:33 pm »
Citar
Editado.
Es mejor no darle más cuerda a este tema.


Fue editado por Sierra002
Espero que así no haya dudas.
 

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papatango

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« Responder #44 em: Janeiro 18, 2006, 10:09:30 pm »
Não Sierra002, não há duvidas nenhumas.

Você tem o direito de escrever o que quiser e como quiser, dentro de regras minimas de comportamento às quais estamos todos obrigados, a questão é que nos deu a ideia de que queria dizer algo, e depois desistiu.

Como nós somos por natureza um povo curioso, podemos ter reservas quando alguém, diz apenas que tem vontade de dizer alguma coisa mas não quer porque existem razões para se auto-censurar.

Não há no entanto problema nenhum com nenhuma mensagem.

Cumprimentos
É muito mais fácil enganar uma pessoa, que explicar-lhe que foi enganada ...