Portugal = Hispanic? Latin? White?????

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Ria

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Portugal = Hispanic? Latin? White?????
« em: Outubro 06, 2004, 11:15:19 pm »
:oops: Ok ok, so this may seem to be a ridiculously dumb question to you guys, but I have been wondering about this for forever, and have never received a straight answer.

What are the Portuguese considered to be in regards to race "names"?  My mom says white, but several people I've talked to have refused to believe that's true.  I read in a book once that Portugal is considered the least Latin of the Latin countries.  

My school is having a Hispanic Food Festival tomorrow, and there was an article about it in the school newspaper.  It talked about the Hispanic countries, and I noticed that they had mentioned Brazil!  I did NOT know Brazil was considered a Hispanic country.  I had always heard the word Hispanic was for Spanish-speaking countries, and we all know the official language of Brasil is Portuguese.  So really, would Portugal be considered "Hispanic"?  I didn't think so before, but it's always been a question in the back of my mind.  Or are Portuguese people considered "white"?
 

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fgomes

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« Responder #1 em: Outubro 06, 2004, 11:57:59 pm »
Hispanic ? Never !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:
 

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Ria

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« Responder #2 em: Outubro 07, 2004, 12:08:17 am »
:?  They are not of Spanish origin!!!! :evil:
 

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JNSA

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« Responder #3 em: Outubro 07, 2004, 12:38:40 am »
Ria, the difference, as I see it, is more or less like these:

- we are definitely not hispanic. Hispania is a name attributed to two different concepts - to a part of the Iberian Peninsula (the other part being Lusitania); or to the entire Peninsula. This use is not correct, and it is a way of defending the idea of a "Greater Spain", which includes Portugal. So, you should only use the word Hispanic when refering to Spanish people, or Spanish speaking countries in South America i.e. Venezuela, Argentina, etc.
- we are white (but of a darker shade... :lol: ), in which concerns the color of our skin (as far as I know, latino is not a colour... :wink: )
- we are Latinos, as this is a term which includes people from countries that have been directly influenced by the Roman Empire, and which speak a language derived from Latin, i.e. Portugal, Spain, Italy, etc... You can also include in this group the south american countries, as they speak Portuguese or Spanish.

Citação de: "Ria"
My mom says white, but several people I've talked to have refused to believe that's true.

I would like to know what is their definition of white (maybe they were thinking "Caucasian", which is a term we don't usually use in Europe)...

Citação de: "Ria"
I read in a book once that Portugal is considered the least Latin of the Latin countries.


That's totally wrong... I would say that, along with the people from the South of Italy, we are the most Latin ones... :wink:  (that's in term of personality).

I hope this helps a bit...
 

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emarques

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« Responder #4 em: Outubro 07, 2004, 01:29:34 am »
Mas por que carga de água é que, depois de várias tentativas, tive que desistir de submeter a minha resposta anterior? Bolas! "The document contains no data", grrr.

Anyway, it's somewhat harder for us to answer that question, because the distinctions you would use in the USA are different from the european ones. Portuguese are considered to be latin. Like Spanish, French, Italians, Romanians... But south americans might not exactly fit the european definition of latin, they would be latin-americans. :mrgreen: ;)
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Ria

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« Responder #5 em: Outubro 07, 2004, 02:40:46 am »
Yes!  That explains it greatly.  Thank you very much, muito obrigado! :D
 

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papatango

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« Responder #6 em: Outubro 07, 2004, 03:16:59 am »
Well Ria, this is a complicated issue. Very complex and rather difficult to explain, especially if you don’t have a concise idea about history and geography.

Since the time of the Romans, that they (the Romans) call Hispania to the Iberian peninsula. Actually, they also called it Iberia, and in some cases they referred to the peninsula as Lusitania, which was in some occasions the most important of it’s constituent parts, at least from a military point of view.

Now, what’s a “Hispanic” ?

Technically, it would be somebody coming from the place called Hispania, and Hispania was in fact the whole Iberian peninsula, and according to some historians, even included the area of north Africa correspondent today to northern Morocco.

The XXth century concept of Hispanic, is created in the United States, and has nothing to do with the original concept of Hispanic (from the roman point of view, and from a logical point of view)

Today, Hispanic, in the United States, means somebody from South or Central America and also from Spain, a country which took the name “Spain” - which was originally a geographical denomination - and transformed it in the name of a country (Today’s kingdom of Spain).

Like if somebody took the name Texas and decided that the whole United States would be called Texas.

Considering this, therefore, according to the US denomination, the Portuguese couldn’t be Hispanic, because Hispanic is a concept, where the Portuguese just wouldn’t fit.

Are Portuguese Latin?
Yes, Portuguese are Latin, because the area correspondent to Portugal was occupied for centuries by the Roman Empire.

Are the Portuguese less Latin than other Latin peoples?
The answer is a definitive YES.
The reason has to do with History and Geography. The Romans actually did not need to come to the western part of Iberia (it was the end of the world at the time). As a result, there was a less considerable intervention of the Latin culture.
At the same time, the peoples living in the western Iberia, were the ones with the most clear Celtic characteristics.
After the fall of the roman empire, again, the Iberian Peninsula was invaded. The first to come were the Sweves, which came from the Baltic, and settled in the northwest of Iberia, again stressing the non-latin characteristics of the western Iberians. The less Romanized, most “Celticized”  areas are the ones that are chosen by the Sweves to settle. The Sweves are (around 150 years later) defeated by another Germanic people, the Visigoths (Goths from the West). All this come to an end with the Muslim invasions, but, again, the Muslim influence in the western part of Iberia was minimum.

Therefore, there are a number of reasons to say that the Portuguese (and Galicians, which are in northern Spain) are actually the less Latin of all Latin peoples.

To stress that, you should also remember something. The Latin culture is a culture influenced by the Mediterranean basin. As you know, Portugal is not a Mediterranean nation.

It is also important to stress, that the Celtic and Germanic cultures were the under developed ones. Nobody wanted to be seen as coming from the north. The culture, science, and everything that was good and of importance, came from the Latin culture  and later from the Arab culture. So, the “less Latin” characteristics tended to fade away.

While the  Portuguese language is in fact a Romance / Latin language there are ethnic reasons to support that the Portuguese people are indeed the less Latin of all the Latin peoples, in the same way that they are not Mediterranean, although inevitably there were influences from the Mediterranean cultures.

Hope to have been of some help.

Regards
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Spectral

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« Responder #7 em: Outubro 07, 2004, 03:49:00 pm »
Only americans to bother with that ( I remember an article by a portuguese journalist in the States a few years ago who was being constantly asked about that).

Why do they feel such a need to categorize people into dark, brown or yellow ?

But, anyway, as far as I know how the americans use the term "Caucasian", we would fit right into it.

And, papatango , I would like you to hear more of you  about the

Citar
Are the Portuguese less Latin than other Latin peoples?
The answer is a definitive YES.


If we take in account the french or the belgian, I have some doubts that we are the least latin ( IIRC our language is one of the closer to the original latin). And I do not know any signs that the romanization was less influential here. Also about the pre-roman bit, I always thought that the celts mixed with the originary iberian people, when they arrived at the peninsula (thus the Gauls et al would be the most "celt", if such thing exists), being called, in "good old portuguese" :wink:

Rgds
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P44

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« Responder #8 em: Outubro 07, 2004, 04:13:43 pm »
emarques wrote:

Citar
Besides, white and latin aren't mutually exclusive. Latin isn't a "race", just a language group, and to some extent a culture. The concept of a "latin" race is very much american. So, portuguese are white latins. Like the spanish are gypsy latins, and people from Lisboa are berber latins.


OK, this is a private joke, Ria, for sure you will not understand...it comes from the rivalries (started by the poor undercivilised people from porto) :mrgreen:, called "bimbos latinos pre neanderthalensis" :oops:

Hope to Assist, Ria!!!!! :new_argue:

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"[Os portugueses são]um povo tão dócil e tão bem amestrado que até merecia estar no Jardim Zoológico"
-Dom Januário Torgal Ferreira, Bispo das Forças Armadas
 

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P44

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« Responder #9 em: Outubro 07, 2004, 04:21:26 pm »
emarques wrote:

Citar
Mas por que carga de água é que, depois de várias tentativas, tive que desistir de submeter a minha resposta anterior? Bolas! "The document contains no data", grrr.


Because in porto they write in big pieces of rock and then try to squezze them into the floppy of a PC, a thing no normal human being would do...

:twisted:  8)
"[Os portugueses são]um povo tão dócil e tão bem amestrado que até merecia estar no Jardim Zoológico"
-Dom Januário Torgal Ferreira, Bispo das Forças Armadas
 

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papatango

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« Responder #10 em: Outubro 07, 2004, 05:01:08 pm »
Ref. To “Portuguese being less Latin than most other Latin peoples”

1 – Belgian
They have latin influences, especially in which concerns language, but they are what remains from the mixture between the Celts, and the Goths which have invaded Gaul. Their Latin heritage comes from the language, but many of their uses and ancestral characteristics are actually not Latin.
2 – French
Same thing, although here we must stress that France is another “invented nation”. Southern France doesn’t have much to do with Northern France. Brittany, or Bretagne, being an example.

In France, a strong centralizes state, starting in the 15th century resulted in a mixed stock, which only common thread was their ancestral connection with Rome and the Latin language. But the influences of the Romans in France were huge. Gaul was rich and, unlike western Iberia, it was in the centre of all routes, coming from Rome to Hispania, or to Britannia, thus the Roman influence grew stronger.

= = =

The Romans were not at all interested in the western part of Iberia.






This is a map of pre-roman Iberia, stressing that there were in fact Celts, Celt-iberian and Iberian peoples. They are different, and although there were connections between the various peoples, it is also true that archaeology shows that these peoples have always been extremely independent from each other. Pottery from the Iberians is identifiable from the Celts, and of course there are the Lusitanian which used Celt implements, but for some reason seemed to still use bronze, while other Celts used iron, leading to the conclusion that Lusitanian were not Iberian, were not Celtiberian, and were only partially Celtic.

Remember that the name Iberia was given by the Romans to identify the known coast of the Mediterranean. It was the land of the Iberians, but when Iberia was given a name, Romans had knowledge of Iberia, only from their contacts with the eastern part of the peninsula, in which is today the Spanish Mediterranean coast.

The rest was known as Iberia, but it was not inhabited by Iberians.

The Lusitanian in century II and I BC started attacking the Romans, and supported the Carthaginian against Rome, during the Punic wars (between Rome and Carthage). Rome’s revenge and pay back time came swiftly, but it took a long time to subdue western Iberia.

All this characteristics, resulted in a lesser influence of the roman culture, although such culture did impose itself, that is undeniable. Considering this, and considering that the Roman influence in northwest Iberia was less strong, that the Sweves took western Iberia and stressed that influence, and that the muslim influence was far shorter than in other regions, Portuguese and Galician are definitively amont the less Latin of Latin peoples. Actually, I have some doubts that French can apply as Latin at all. (Their tendency to surrender, you know) … :mrgreen:

Regards
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emarques

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« Responder #11 em: Outubro 07, 2004, 05:19:11 pm »
Citação de: "P44"
emarques wrote:OK, this is a private joke, Ria, for sure you will not understand...it comes from the rivalries (started by the poor undercivilised people from porto)

(...)

(and now I must run, I see emarques running in my direction, with a big rock in his hand, and mumblimg something not quite understandable...that's right, they even speak an ancient tong...not understood by the (average) mankind...) ;)

Só que... não sou do Porto (cidade), nem sequer do Douro Litoral, e sou benfiquista. :mrgreen:
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Luso

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« Responder #12 em: Outubro 07, 2004, 05:59:45 pm »
Os conios é que estavam bem, no Algarve... :mrgreen:
Ai de ti Lusitânia, que dominarás em todas as nações...
 

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papatango

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« Responder #13 em: Outubro 07, 2004, 06:14:53 pm »
Depois de analisar os comentarios do Luso, devo dizer que estou de acordo.

Aliás a região da actual Odemira, também era ?Conicense?  (Não sei qual o nome da terra dos Conios), não era só o Algarve.

Aliás, devo também dizer que há uma parte da terra do povo cónio, que está na actual Castela.

Acho mesmo que devemos pensar em, depois de libertar Olivença, marchar sobre a antiga (substituir por terra dos cónios, que eu não sei qual é) .

É inadmissivel, que a (terra dos cónios) Ocidental esteja sob o jugo castelhano.

Portanto, marchemos sobre a (terra dos cónios), para libertar a (terra dos cónios) da ocupação castelhana.
:Cavaleria1: :Cavaleria1: :Cavaleria1:

Cumprimentos
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JNSA

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« Responder #14 em: Outubro 07, 2004, 06:23:48 pm »
Citação de: "papatango"
Depois de analisar os comentarios do Luso, devo dizer que estou de acordo.

Aliás a região da actual Odemira, também era ?Conicense?  (Não sei qual o nome da terra dos Conios), não era só o Algarve.

Aliás, devo também dizer que há uma parte da terra do povo cónio, que está na actual Castela.

Acho mesmo que devemos pensar em, depois de libertar Olivença, marchar sobre a antiga (substituir por terra dos cónios, que eu não sei qual é) .

É inadmissivel, que a (terra dos cónios) Ocidental esteja sob o jugo castelhano.

Portanto, marchemos sobre a (terra dos cónios), para libertar a (terra dos cónios) da ocupação castelhana.
:Cavaleria1: :Cavaleria1: :wink:

----------

Mas Papatango, sinceramente não me parece que sejamos dos menos Latinos entre os Latinos.

É certo que outros povos sentiram mais fortemente a influência romana, mas em termos de personalidade, à poucos que sejam mais latinos do que nós... :wink: