Força Aérea Indiana

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Marauder

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Força Aérea Indiana
« em: Agosto 02, 2006, 01:49:19 pm »
Índia planeia comprar 80 novos helicópteros Mi-17
http://www.hindu.com/2006/07/12/stories ... 380900.htm
http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?id=689118

Entretanto, ainda acerca do concurso para o novo caça indiano, a Boeing tenciona ultrapassar a proibição da passagem de tecnologia sensível do novo F-18 para a Índia
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/20 ... mits+.html
 

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Marauder

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« Responder #1 em: Agosto 04, 2006, 09:24:19 pm »
Upgrades aos Mig-21 estão a demorar demasiado tempo
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=402457
 

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Get_It

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N: "Indian Air Chief Marshal warns of impending (...)&q
« Responder #2 em: Setembro 29, 2006, 10:31:25 pm »
Citação de: "Wikinews"
Indian Air Chief Marshal warns of impending Pakistani air superiority
September 29, 2006
The top-brass of the Indian Air Force (IAF) has sent a three-page letter to Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee, warning him that the IAF is in danger of losing its long-standing air-superiority over Pakistan. In the letter, Air Chief Marshal Tyagi writes,

"Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is being beefed up with 44 F16s from America. They have a clearly defined goal of attaining parity with the IAF. With China supplying J 10 and JF 17 aircraft (fitted with Russian engines), PAF force levels of combat squadron will increase."
"Unless steps are taken to move ahead with procurement, the IAF's combat strength will deplete to a level, which would entirely neutralise the conventional superiority held by IAF since our Independence. PAF will have 19 to 26 squadrons by 2011-12, while the IAF could reduce to 26.5 by 2015."


Additional Director of Air Power Studies, Kapil Kak said, "This aircraft induction will take at least 10 years from today and in those 10 years, the MiG 21's will progress if they get wound down. Their total technical life and design life will end and we will have the Air Force combat force strength winding down, worryingly fast."

Several inductions planned by the IAF, such as the HAL Tejas and the proposed Multirole Medium Range Combat Aircraft, have been delayed. In his letter, the Air Chief Marshal has asked the Government to acquire 40 Su-30 MKIs from Russia as soon as possible, induct the 126 Multirole Medium Range Combat Aircraft at the earliest and also urge Russia to honour their commitment of not allowing China to sell planes with Russian engines to Pakistan.

fonte: Wikinews http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Indian_Air_Chief_Marshal_warns_of_impending_Pakistani_air_superiority
All text created after September 25, 2005 is available under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution 2.5 License unless otherwise specified.


Mais fontes:
"IAF air power running out, may lose out to Pakistan"
"IAF struggles to retain edge over PAF"

Cumprimentos,
:snip: :snip: :Tanque:
 

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Sintra

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« Responder #3 em: Setembro 30, 2006, 11:54:49 am »
"RAF Jets Head for India"

 Durante o mês de Outubro vai decorrer o exercicio "Indradhanush" ("Arco-Iris" em Hindi). A RAF vai enviar seis Tornado F3 do 43 Sqn, um E3 Sentry do 8 Sqn e um VC10 do 101 Sqn.
 O exercicio vai decorrer na base aerea de Gwalior, a mesma utilizada em anos recentes pela Adla e pela USAF.
 Os Tornados vão exercitar-se em conjunto com Mirages 2000, Mig29,Mig27 e SU30 da IAF.


(Air Forces Monthly, Outubro 2006)
 

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Lancero

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« Responder #4 em: Junho 04, 2007, 09:11:57 pm »
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WASHINGTON: The Bush administration has notified Congress of the impending sale to India of six C-130J aircraft and accessories worth more than $1 billion, underscoring the growing "Americanisation" of Indian military hardware.

The proposed sale, the Defence Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) said in its notification this week, "will enhance the foreign policy and national security objectives of the US by providing the Indian government with a credible special operations airlift capacity that will deter aggression in the region, provide humanitarian airlift capability and provide interoperability with US forces in coalition operations."

The purchase will mark a significant diversification of India’s military transport paradigm that has traditionally rested on Soviet-supplied AN-32 and IL-76 aircraft. Earlier this year, New Delhi purchased the American landing dock USS Trenton, which will give the Indian Navy amphibious landing capability.

The $1.059 billion transaction will also be the single largest Indian military purchase to date from the United States. C-130J is the latest model of the trusted and versatile Hercules transport aircraft that has been an American workhorse for half a century, the longest continuous production-run of any military aircraft in history.

Capable of short takeoffs and landings from unprepared runways and dirt tracks, the C-130 was originally designed as a troop, medical evacuation and cargo transport aircraft.

But the latest model that India will purchase will be a souped up version of the Super Hercules, capable of multiple functions. Much of the special mission equipment added to the Hercules is removable, allowing the aircraft to revert back to its cargo delivery role if desired. The C-130J is currently being used by American and allied forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.

In addition to the basic aircraft frames and equipment, India is also said to have asked for four Rolls Royce AE 2100D3 spare engines; eight AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems; eight AN/ALR-56M Advanced Radar Warning Receivers; eight AN/ALE-47 Counter-Measures Dispensing Systems; eight AAQ-22 Star SAFIRE III Special Operations Suites.


Fonte
"Portugal civilizou a Ásia, a África e a América. Falta civilizar a Europa"

Respeito
 

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Lancero

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« Responder #5 em: Agosto 29, 2007, 11:13:10 am »
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Índia: Aberto concurso milionário para renovar frota de aviões de defesa

Nova Deli, 28 Ago (Lusa) - A Índia abriu hoje um concurso internacional  para renovar a sua frota de aviões de combate, dando origem a uma competicão  entre os gigantes mundiais da aeronáutica de defesa já que estão em causa  10,2 mil milhões de dólares.  

     

   Este contrato, esperado há anos, refere-se à aquisição, pela força aérea  indiana, de 126 aviões de combate para substituir os seus MiG-21 russos,  que estão muito velhos.  

     

   Responsáveis oficiais revelaram que os primeiros 18 aparelhos serão  comprados directamente e entregues à força aérea em 2012, o mais tardar,  enquanto os restantes 108 aviões serão fabricados sob licença na Índia.  

     

   Na corrida para ganhar o concurso estão, entre outros, os russos MiG,  com o seu MiG-35 e MiG-29, os americanos Boeing (com o seu F/A-18E/F Super  Hornet) e Lockheed Martin (com o F-16), o avião Rafale, da empresa francesa  Dassault Aviação, e o modelo Gripen, da empresa sueca Saab.  
"Portugal civilizou a Ásia, a África e a América. Falta civilizar a Europa"

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Mar Verde

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« Responder #6 em: Agosto 29, 2007, 12:04:27 pm »
Citar
India's MRCA Fighter Competition

"It's the biggest fighter aircraft deal since the early 1990s," said Boeing's Mark Kronenberg, who runs the company's Asia/Pacific business. DID has offered ongoing coverage of India's planned multi-billion dollar jet fighter buy, from its early days as a contest between Dassault, Saab, and MiG for a 126 plane order to the possible entry of American competitors and even EADS' Eurofighter. What began as a lightweight fighter competition to replace India's shrinking MiG-21 interceptor fleet appears to have bifurcated into two categories now, and two expense tiers.

So, what's going on? In a word, lots. The participants are changing, India's view of its own needs is changing, and the size and nature of the order may be changing as well… (updated Nov 10, 2006).

The Competitors: Analysis

Recent changes in India's needs and the contest participants are changing the relative rankings of the contenders. Geopolitical considerations are also intruding, as most of these choices have the potential to improve relations with an important potential ally. As noted above, standardization arguments will also carry weight. India's Air Force currently operates 26 different types of aircraft, and India is not eager to add to its support headaches.

Rather than predict, DID will simply summarize the strengths and weaknesses of the current and potential competitors. These aircraft also group into two very different categories: single engine lightweight fighters in the $25-40 million flyaway range (F-16 Falcon, JAS-39 Gripen, MiG-35, Mirage 2000-5); and larger dual-engine mid-range fighters in the $55-70 million flyaway range (Eurofighter, F/A-18 Super Hornet, Rafale).


Lightweight Fighters


F-16 Fighting Falcon (Lockheed, USA). Presumably, Lockheed's "Block 70" offering would be an upgraded version of the F-16E Block 60 "Desert Falcon" currently serving with the UAE. Strengths include the widest multi-role capability among lightweight fighters, its AN/APG-80 AESA radar, a wide choice of proven avionics and systems, a long record of proven service so all issues are known, and widespread compatibility with potential allies in Asia and the Middle East who also fly F-16s. The combination of an AESA radar on a less expensive platform is also good news for cruise missile defense efforts, if that's considered a priority.

Yet the Indian Air Force has just never seemed interested in the F-16. Weaknesses include the fact that Pakistan also flies F-16s; the fact it's a new aircraft type so the entire support infrastructure would have to be developed; and the difficulty Lockheed would have complying with industrial offset provisions given their lack of penetration in India.

JAS-39 Gripen (Saab, Sweden; marketed by Britain's BAE). True fourth generation lightweight fighter, significantly more capable than category competitors like the F-16 and Mirage 2000 though the MiG-35 may give it a run for the money. Other strengths include the fact that it has been designed for exceptional cost of ownership, and can operate from roads instead of runways if necessary. The JAS-39 A-D models' use of a modified F404 engine also indicates that it could be modifiable to use India's Kaveri engine (the Tejas LCA will use F404 engines until Kaveri is ready, if it ever is); but the next-generation model is upgrading to the F414G engine, and is likely to need a corresponding level of engine performance.

The next generation Gripen Demo version Saab is now offering also begins to address the aircraft's range limitations, and the new aircraft will also include an AESA radar and other enhancements. Its drawbacks include the fact it's a new aircraft type for the IAF so the entire support infrastructure would have to be developed; and a low volume of international orders to date that raises questions about the platform's ability to modernize over the next 30 years. Saab usually handles industrial offsets via its automotive group, which could represent either a difficulty or a market opportunity for the company. It also carries no spin-off geopolitical plusses, and this last weakness may be the real nail in its competition coffin.

MiG-29OVT, aka. MiG-35 (Rosonboronexport, Russia). This modified MiG-29 includes improved radar and avionics that give it multi-role capability, extra fuel in a new aircraft "spine," and thrust-vectoring engines a la India's SU-30MKIs. Their presence in India also makes compliance with industrial offset requirements easier. Strengths include compatibility with the existing and future MiG-29 fleet, and its ability to carry advanced Russian missiles already in service like the revolutionary AA-11/R-73 Archer and longer range AA-12/R-77 "AMRAAMski." The MiG-29's biggest weaknesses were short range, engines that produce telltale smoke (very bad in air combat) and lack of true multi-role capability; the MiG-35 fixes them, and may even add an AESA radar of its own if Phazotron-NIIR can have its new Zhuk-MAE ready in time. Technology sharing and co-production is also considered to be a plus; as one Indian officer put it: "Russians have their problems of delayed projects and unreliable spare supply but they give access to everything, unlike the Americans."

Its biggest weakness is the IAF's not-so-great experience with India's existing MiG-29s, which have had maintenance problems in addition to their other deficits. Secondary weaknesses include legitimate speculation about the future viability of the platform, which has been eclipsed by the SU-30 to the point that its design bureau's very industrial future is seriously in doubt. Although Algeria's $1.8 billion order has helped, some industry observers have forecast that without a win in India, that platform and even RSK MiG itself may not have much of a future.

Mirage 2000-5 (Dassault). Withdrawn, for reasons that still aren't entirely clear. Richard Aboulafia points out that the history of global fighter purchases shows strong clustering at the lower-price end of the market; shutting down Mirage 2000 production would shut Dassault out of that niche. A Mirage 2000 entry would have had strengths that included compatibility with Mirage 2000s already in service, which performed very well in the 1999 Kargil skirmishes. An infrastructure already exists for industrial offsets, and its low end price could be raised along with its capabilities by adding equipment developed in the Rafale program.

The Mirage 2000's potential performance similarity to the Tejas LCA project is both weakness and strength. One the one hand, that would have made it a good insurance policy if confidence in the Tejas fell. On the other hand, it may not have been seen as adding enough to the force mix if confidence in the Tejas program is high.

Tejas LCA (HAL et. al., India). A lightweight, indigenously-developed fighter aircraft expected to enter service around 2010. Currently in testing using GE's F404 engine, while the accompanying Kaveri jet engine project remains in the R&D stage and has been forced to find foreign design help. The Tejas is not an MRCA competitor – but its development plans, the confidence in its success, its ability to stay under $25 million, the potential for a naval variant, et. al. will have a behind-the-curtains influence on every MRCA decision. See DID's in-depth coverage of the Tejas LCA program for more.


Mid-Range Fighters


Eurofighter Typhoon (EADS/BAE, Europe & Britain). A fourth generation aircraft currently optimized for the air-air role through its performance characteristics and what is by all accounts an excellent pilot interface. Reportedly has "supercruise" capability of being able to exceed Mach 1 without using afterburners, though some analysts have cast doubt on how sustainable that is. Some observers believe that aside from the F-22A Raptor, the Eurofighter is the next-best in-service air superiority aircraft world-wide (a competition with the SU-30MKI would be interesting). Future upgrades will give it more mult-role capability. EADS Airbus might be able to handle the industrial offsets angle if things ever got that far.

Weaknesses include the fact it's a new aircraft type for the IAF so the entire support infrastructure would have to be developed; its lack of an AESA radar; its lack of naval capability; and the non-existent geopolitical benefits of selecting it. Given the Eurofighter's performance and cost range, simply buying more SU-30MKIs would appear to make far more sense.

F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet (Boeing, USA). Highly upgraded version of the F/A-18 A-D Hornet, enlarged and given new engines and avionics. Strengths include its powerful AN/APG-79 AESA radar, which has drawn significant interest from India. This radar could allow Super Hornets to play a unique role in India's fighter fleet as versatile "quarterbacks" (or better yet, "cricket captains") due to their radar's performance and information sharing abilities. Other advantages include carrier capability, a very wide range of integrated weapons, a design that is proven in service and in combat, and complete assurance in its future given the US Navy's commitment to it. The existence of a dedicated electronic warfare variant as of 2009 in the EA-18G Growler may also be a potent motivator, as long-range strike and carrier strike will increasingly require this unique capability. Last but certainly not least, this choice offers an opportunity to create an early "win" which would strengthen India's new alliance with the USA and prove its new status in the world. After all, no other nation has even been offered the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet.

Weaknesses of the platform include poorer aerodynamic performance than the Eurofighter or Rafale due to inherent airframe limitations, and the fact it's a new aircraft type for the IAF so the entire support infrastructure would have to be developed. Industrial offsets could also prove challenging, but the Super Hornet's Boeing connection may be able to solve this problem via the civil aircraft market.

Rafale (Dassault, France). Advantages include demonstrated carrier capability in the Rafale-M, which could be a very big factor if the RFP includes that as a requirement. The aircraft offers exceptional ordnance capacity for its size, and can have its range extended via conformal fuel tanks (unknown to DID whether this has been tested on the Rafale-M). It also offers superior aerodynamic performance over the F/A-18 family. The Rafale claims "supercruise" capability, but observers are skeptical and it has been challenging to demonstrate this with the Snecma R88-2 engine. Installing the Kaveri engine may be possible, and would give that engine a broader fleet of aircraft that would amortize its costs better – albeit at a likely performance penalty. The Rafale would have some equipment, maintenance and spares commonalities with existing Mirage 2000 fleet, which would probably increase if the Mirage 2000s were modernized later on.

Weaknesses include the fact that the Rafale has yet to win a single export competition worldwide, the need for additional funds and work integrate many non-French weapons if one wishes to use them on the Rafale, and its lack of an AESA radar. Rafale's failure to win export competitions means more than a perception of "also-ran" status; as DID noted in an update to our Singapore fighter coverage (the Rafale lost to the F-15SG Strike Eagle), it is already forcing cuts in future Rafale procurement to pay for modernization, a dynamic that could get worse over the next 30 years.

F-35 Joint Stike Fighter (Lockheed-led, multinational). India's Chief Air Marshal recently specificaly noted that the JSF was not in their plans for this buy, a likelihood that DID's analysis had noted earlier due to probable lack of availability before 2015. If it were flying today, the F-35B would probably be by far the best fit for India's requirements. The planes would be carrier-capable from all of India's naval air platforms, including smaller carriers the size of INS Viraat (ex-Hermes) or LHD amphibious assault ships, and could use roads and short field runways as well for maximum operational flexibility. F-35 JSFs would sport ultra-advanced systems that include the AN/APG-81 AESA radar, and incredibly advanced sensor systems and electronics that would make it India's most capable reconnaissance asset and even a potential electronic warfare aircraft. Other strengths would include greater stealth than any other competitor, which is critical for both air-air dogfights and strikes on defended targets. The Super Hornet may be able to fill the role of an aerial cricket captain, but the JSF is more like Sachin Tendulkar.

India has been invited to F-35 events. With potential US order numbers dropping, India might even be accepted into the program if they pushed for it. The F-35's killer weakness is timing. Its advanced systems, established industrial partnerhsip structure and program procurement policies could also make it nearly impossible to meet India's industrial offset rules.


in http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/mir ... ges-01989/
 

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fischt75

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« Responder #7 em: Agosto 30, 2007, 01:31:32 pm »
Sobre a Força aérea Indiana, saiu um artigo muito interessante na revista Airforces Monthly de Setembro sobre a ida de 6 Su-30MKI, 2 IL- 78MKI Midas, á base aérea da RAF de Waddington, e a presença de 2 RC-135U da USAF e o Aeronave QuinetiQ BAC One-Eleven. O artigo fala sobre a tentativa ou obtenção directa das frequências utilizadas pelos radares N011 M BARS nos Su-30MKI em tempo de paz e acção directa.
Vale a pena ler.
Portugal
 

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hellboy

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« Responder #8 em: Fevereiro 25, 2008, 05:59:25 pm »
Armements : l’armée indienne entend doubler son parc d’hélicoptères d’ici 2020
publié le lundi 25 février 2008  

   
L’armée indienne entend doubler son parc d’hélicoptères et "le porter à 500 appareils d’ici à 2020", a annoncé lundi aux journalistes un représentant de l’armée de terre indienne, le colonel A.K. Suri, dans le cadre du Salon d’armements DEFEXPO India 2008 à New Delhi.
"L’aviation tactique est le segment de l’armée de terre indienne connaissant le développement le plus rapide ", a-t-il précisé.

En ce moment, l’armée indienne possède 250 hélicoptères. Ce sont majoritairement des appareils obsolètes de fabrication locale. Selon le colonel, l’Etat accordera un milliard de dollars environ pour rénover le parc et prépare un appel d’offres sur 197 hélicoptères légers. Le contrat pourrait être élargi compte tenu des besoins de l’armée de l’air.

Les résultats de l’appel d’offres précédent, remporté par l’européen Eurocopter, ont été annulés en décembre dernier, en raison d’une "non-conformité aux paramètres prescrits". Le marché était estimé à 600 millions de dollars. Selon certaines estimations, les Européens avaient présenté une version civile de l’appareil pour les tests qui ont duré près de deux ans.

Eurocopter, l’américain Bell et le russe Kamov pourraient participer à un nouvel appel d’offres
 

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Général

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« Responder #9 em: Fevereiro 25, 2008, 06:04:37 pm »
WASHINGTON, 25 février (février). Novosti. Le président américain George Bush a suggerer de fournir Inde gratuitement le porte avions "Kitty Hawk", qui sortira du service sous peu, à condition que le gouvernement indien achete des chasseurs "F/A-18E/F" de la marine indienne aviation.

Selon les informations magazine "The Weekly Standard", citant plusieurs sources, le Secrétaire à la défense, Robert Gates transmettera a ces homologues indiens la proposition du président Bush, lors de sa visite à New Delhi, le vingt-sixième de ce mois.

Le magazine a indiqué qu'une telle force pourrait insiter l'Inde d'abandonner l'idée de l'achat d'un porte-avions russe "Amiral Gorshkov" et un nombre de combattants "MIG -29 k." Elle a ajouté que la transaction, si achevée pourrait forcer l'armée de l'air indienne d'acheter des chasseurs «F-18» de l'Amérique, d'autant plus que l'Inde a l'intention d'importer 200 avions de chasses étrangers pour ses forces aériennes.

Le magazine estime que cela lui causerait un important dommage a MIG , et rendrai la tâche difficile a l'entreprise «Mig» à rester sur le marché russe des avions de guerre dans le monde.

Il est à noter que la part de l'Inde les exportations d'armes russes dépasser 30 pour cent viennent en deuxième position après la Chine dans ce domaine. Toutes les classes impliquées forces armées indiennes maintenant dans la quasi-militaire de programmes de coopération technique de la Fédération indienne.

The Indian forces terrestres formées à l'utilisation des citernes "TS -90", dont il a importations en provenance de Russie.

Got the "MIG" l'Ordre russe de l'Inde pour la fabrication d'avions de combat à partir d'un avion "MIG -29 k"

De l'Indian Air Force avion achat "Su -30 mka", et a obtenu une licence pour la fabrication de ces avions.

http://ar.rian.ru/defense_safety/20080225/99998044.html
 

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lexivia

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« Responder #10 em: Fevereiro 25, 2008, 07:58:33 pm »
Citação de: "Général"
WASHINGTON, 25 février (février). Novosti. Le président américain George Bush a suggerer de fournir Inde gratuitement le porte avions "Kitty Hawk", qui sortira du service sous peu, à condition que le gouvernement indien achete des chasseurs "F/A-18E/F" de la marine indienne aviation.

Selon les informations magazine "The Weekly Standard", citant plusieurs sources, le Secrétaire à la défense, Robert Gates transmettera a ces homologues indiens la proposition du président Bush, lors de sa visite à New Delhi, le vingt-sixième de ce mois.

Le magazine a indiqué qu'une telle force pourrait insiter l'Inde d'abandonner l'idée de l'achat d'un porte-avions russe "Amiral Gorshkov" et un nombre de combattants "MIG -29 k." Elle a ajouté que la transaction, si achevée pourrait forcer l'armée de l'air indienne d'acheter des chasseurs «F-18» de l'Amérique, d'autant plus que l'Inde a l'intention d'importer 200 avions de chasses étrangers pour ses forces aériennes.

Le magazine estime que cela lui causerait un important dommage a MIG , et rendrai la tâche difficile a l'entreprise «Mig» à rester sur le marché russe des avions de guerre dans le monde.

Il est à noter que la part de l'Inde les exportations d'armes russes dépasser 30 pour cent viennent en deuxième position après la Chine dans ce domaine. Toutes les classes impliquées forces armées indiennes maintenant dans la quasi-militaire de programmes de coopération technique de la Fédération indienne.

The Indian forces terrestres formées à l'utilisation des citernes "TS -90", dont il a importations en provenance de Russie.

Got the "MIG" l'Ordre russe de l'Inde pour la fabrication d'avions de combat à partir d'un avion "MIG -29 k"

De l'Indian Air Force avion achat "Su -30 mka", et a obtenu une licence pour la fabrication de ces avions.

http://ar.rian.ru/defense_safety/20080225/99998044.html


Julgo que há um grande problema com estas condições americanas, é a questão do uso de tecnologia e armas de origem USA pois não me parece que a India queira "autorização" dos USA para poder exercer força militar sobre quem e quando entender.
 

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Eurico Viegas

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« Responder #11 em: Fevereiro 25, 2008, 08:55:46 pm »
E não só o problema da autorização US para qualquer coisa que a India queira fazer com o Kitty Hawk...
O facto do Kitty Hawk já ter perto de 50 anos de serviço deve fazer maravilhas, para lá de nem nos referirmos à manutenção. Os Americanos podem tentar, mas não creio que os Indianos se metam numa dessas :D
disce quasi semper victurus, vive quasi cras moriturus
 

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Général

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« Responder #12 em: Fevereiro 25, 2008, 09:44:13 pm »
Je pense que les américains gagnerons l'appel d'offre  :P

Penso que os americanos irão ganhar o concurso: lol:
Com um avião como porta brindes difícil recusar ..
 

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Eurico Viegas

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« Responder #13 em: Fevereiro 25, 2008, 09:46:22 pm »
Um porta-aviões com 50 anos e que é conhecido internamente como o "Shitty Kitty"? Belo brinde... É como ter um bolo-rei só com favas :twisted:
disce quasi semper victurus, vive quasi cras moriturus
 

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Général

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« Responder #14 em: Fevereiro 25, 2008, 09:57:35 pm »
Citação de: "Eurico Viegas"
Um porta-aviões com 50 anos e que é conhecido internamente como o "Shitty Kitty"? Belo brinde... É como ter um bolo-rei só com favas :lol:  oui je sais les américains ont commencé la constructions du porte avions en 1956  :lol: ...
Mais du moment que le porte avion fonctionne toujours c'est le principale, les Indiens ne cherche pas forcément du neufs.

Sim, eu sei que os americanos iniciaram a construção aviões em 1956: lol:: lol: ...
No entanto, enquanto o avião porta está sempre funciona primária, os índios não apenas experimentar o novo.
 

 

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