Israel vs Hezbollah no Libano

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Marauder

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« Responder #75 em: Julho 16, 2006, 10:57:51 pm »
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Er...
Então como é que se deve fazer?

O Hezbolah lança os seus mísseis do telhado e das janelas de blocos de apartamentos civis...

O ataque a fontes de combustível ou a destruição da rede de energia tem objectivos.
- Consegue pelo menos provocar complicações a um potêncial inimigo.
- Cria problemas no transito e afecta a comunicação entre os vários nucleos
- Reduz consideravelmente a capacidade de comando e controlo que passa a ter que contar com geradores (que produzem ruido de noite e são detectaveis mesmo que estejam em caves e se não estiverem produzem calor)  ou então com o auxilio de energia de baterias auxiliares.

Quando o inimigo se esconde entre civis, o que é que se pode fazer?

 :idea:  :arrow: Poderiam também fazer controlos com as tropas do terreno.

Eu no lugar do Hezbollah não usaria carros e outros veículos, visto ser aquilo a que o IDF está mais atento. :?:  



Também vão destruir todos os supermercados e etc para os fazer morrer à fome? Os do Hezbollah é claro...os otros infelizes simplesmente estão no lugar errado...deviam tar noutro país...é quase a ideia que os porta-vozes do IDF dão..


:( Já a destruição completa do país como eles estão a fazer vai demorar muitos anos....sim...porque não estou a ver Israel a pagar pela reconstrução....logo...usando dinheiro libanês (com talvez algumas ajudas de outros países) a reconstrução vai demorar anos...visto que eles ainda estavam a recuperar somente agora da guerra civil.

Citação de: "papatango"
Todos vimos a precisão dos ataques israelitas contra as pistas do aeroporto de Tripoli. Mesmo no centro!!!
Tripoli?? O coitado do Kadhafi perderia a cabeça se tal acontecesse.
« Última modificação: Julho 16, 2006, 11:29:40 pm por Marauder »
 

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« Responder #76 em: Julho 16, 2006, 11:27:02 pm »
Acabei de ouvir na radio que morreram 8 canadianos. Que linda figura a dos israelitas. :idea:

"Huit Canadiens tués au Liban
 
MONTRéAL - Huit Canadiens ont été tués et six autres blessés dimanche dans des bombardements israéliens au Liban, a annoncé le chef de la diplomatie canadienne Peter Mackay. Le pays se prépare à évacuer ses ressortissants par bateau.

Selon la police libanaise sur place, cinq des ressortissants canadiens -un couple libano-canadien et leurs trois enfants- ont été tués dans le bombardement d'Aïtaroun, un village du Sud-Liban frontalier d'Israël. Ils étaient arrivés au Liban il y a dix jours pour y passer des vacances dans leur village natal.

Sept civils ont été tués dans ce bombardement. Six personnes, également canado-libanais ont aussi été blessés dans ce village.

Au moins 45 civils ont perdu la vie et plus d'une centaine ont été blessés dimanche au Sud-Liban, selon un bilan de la police.

Le ministre des Affaires étrangères a d'autre part indiqué que les autorités canadiennes étaient en train d'organiser une évacuation par voie maritime pour ceux de ses ressortissants qui souhaiteraient partir. Quelque 16'000 Canadiens sont actuellement enregistrés auprès de leur ambassade à Beyrouth, mais il y en a probablement deux ou trois fois plus dans le pays.

 
SDA-ATS"
 

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Lightning

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« Responder #77 em: Julho 17, 2006, 12:05:13 am »
Citação de: "Marauder"
Tripoli?? O coitado do Kadhafi perderia a cabeça se tal acontecesse.


 :lol:

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geografia_do_L%C3%ADbano
(na imagem ver as cidades do norte junto à costa)
 

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Marauder

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« Responder #78 em: Julho 17, 2006, 12:27:04 am »
Citação de: "Hélder"
:lol:

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geografia_do_L%C3%ADbano
(na imagem ver as cidades do norte junto à costa)


É verdade sim senhor...mas pois...o aeroporto não sei..no google maps não encontrei nada.
 

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Azraael

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« Responder #79 em: Julho 17, 2006, 01:01:20 am »
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Líbano: dez portugueses vão ser evacuados esta segunda-feira


Dez dos 14 portugueses que pediram ajuda para abandonar o Líbano vão sair ainda hoje do país, a bordo de um navio fretado pela França, anunciou a secretaria de Estado das Comunidades.
Eduardo Saraiva, assessor do secretário de Estado das Comunidades, explicou que os dez portugueses vão ser incluídos na primeira missão de evacuação organizada pelo Governo francês, abandonando o Líbano num “ferry” que deverá partir amanhã à noite de Beirute, rumo a Chipre.
A data de chegada a Portugal só será conhecida amanhã, quando for determinado o trajecto que os repatriados farão a partir do Chipre, adiantou o assessor.
Os restantes quatro portugueses que pediram para sair do Líbano, onde os ataques israelitas está a provocar a fuga de muitos cidadãos estrangeiros, deverão abandonar o país na quarta-feira, numa segunda viagem a efectuar pelo navio francês, com capacidade para mil passageiros.
Além dos portugueses outras quatro pessoas com ligações a Portugal (uma cidadã guineense, a mulher do cônsul do Brasil e os respectivos filhos) pediram ajuda a Lisboa para sair do Líbano, não se sabendo ainda quando serão evacuados.
A retirada de cidadãos portugueses está a ser organizada pela representação diplomática francesa em Beirute, uma vez que Portugal não tem embaixada no Líbano.



http://www.publico.clix.pt/shownews.asp?id=1264262&idCanal=18
 

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papatango

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« Responder #80 em: Julho 17, 2006, 01:07:27 am »
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Não destruir as infraestruturas principais, mas metendo-as inoperacionais. Reconheço que a sua inoperabilidade tras benefícios, mas...porqué destruir a central eléctrica quando podem simplesmente bombardear os postes de electricidade que desta provém.

-1- Como é que você mantem inoperacional uma central electrica a 150 Km de distância sem a destruir ?
Rezando :shock:
Você acha que é viável gastar de 10.000 a 50.000 Euros (10.000 contos) numa bomba guiada a Laser ou com GPS para destruir postes de electricidade que podem ser postos a funcionar 4 a 6 horas depois mesmo durante a noite?
Uma das regras da guerra, é fazer o maior numero de estragos ao inimigo, pelo menor preço possivel.
Aliás, é a mesma razão pela qual os israelitas deixam entrar os misseis Fajr/Katiusha modernizados, porque não se vai gastar dinheiro num Patriot para atacar foguetes 5.000 vezes mais baratos.

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Ou simplesmente meterem lá tropas para se certificarem que está out?
Mas meterem lá tropas onde ?
Em cada poste ?
A 150 Km de distância do lugar onde estão as tropas israelitas?

Como disse, os postes podem ser facilmente repostos e reconstruidos com uma enorme facilidade. Tão facilmente que se pode fazer isso não depois da guerra, mas sim antes, para garantir que não se perde.

O objectivo é garantir que o inimigo não pode voltar a utilizar um meio ou equipamentoe para isso não se pode estar com contemplações.
Se você der uma vantagem por pequena que seja ao inimigo, ele não lhe vai agradecer e se for possível vai utilizar essa vantagem contra si na primeira oportunidade.

Nós nestes fórums, muitas vezes falamos das linhas belas dos aviões ou da beleza dos carros de combate, e esquecemos uma coisa: A guerra não é uma coisa bonita.
As armas foram feitas para matar e para destruir.

Os Israelitas estão armados até aos dentes, exactamente para poderem fazer o que agora estão a fazer.

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Para além que eles se podem muito bem desenrascar (e tornar esta destruição de infraestruturas completamente inutil) ...eu no lugar no Hezbollah não usaria tal geradores....luz das velas à noite bastaria dentro das grutas, etc.

Marauder :

Você não está a entender a complexidade necessária para operar até as baterias de mísseis Fajr. O Hezbolah no Líbano, não são os maltrapilhos Talibã no Afeganistão nem nada que se lhe pareça.
O Hezbolah tem que ter equipamentos de pontaria, mesmo que não sejam os mais sofisticados para conseguir guiar misseis que vão cair a 50 Km de distância.
Muitos dos Fajr são transportados em camiões-plataforma que precisam de se deslocar de um lugar para o outro.
Aliás essa é a táctica.
Disparar uma rajada, e fugir dali rapidamente para que já ninguém lá esteja quando os israelitas chegarem.

Os misseis que atingiram a corveta israelita (dependendo do modelo e eu ainda não estou seguro de que modelo foi disparado) podem ter necessitado de sistemas sofisticados de direccionamento. Tudo isso precisa de energia electrica e de combustível para os veículos e os veículos precisam de estradas.

O corte de combustível vai tornar cada vez mais complicado encher o depósito dos camiões e veículos tácticos que eles utilizam.
Aliás, por isso se destruiram estadas, para garantir que é necessário andar mais (por estradas secundárias) e assim perder mais tempo e gastar mais combustível que se vai tornar cada vez mais precioso e raro.

A verdade, é que até ao momento, os israelitas até parecem relativamente contidos.
Eles têm capacidades muito superiores e o que têm feito até ao momento é agir como os americanos no Iraque, tentando reduzir ao máximo o numero de vitimas civis.
O problema é que isso é impossível, porque há sempre erros de interpretação e na guerra, se há um plano que pode correr mal, é certo e sabido que ele vai correr mal.

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Azraael

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« Responder #81 em: Julho 17, 2006, 01:15:20 am »
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Hate Thy Neighbour


Understanding the new and lethal logic of violence in the Middle East--and what the world can do to find peace
By LISA MEYER/ JERUSALEM
In normal times, the hills of northern Galilee fill with tourists, some of them pilgrims seeking out the places where Jesus walked 2,000 years ago. Today those hills are burning. It is in Galilee that the rockets fired by Hizballah militants in Lebanon typically fall, occasionally scoring a direct hit on someone vulnerable, more often forcing inhabitants to move into bomb shelters. In the escarpment hamlet of Shomera, Israelis like Gabriel Peretz, the owner of a bed-and-breakfast, can do little more than brace for the next attack. "The situation is very bad," he says, his sentences punctuated by the sound of Israeli artillery fire, a crack-boom followed by a lingering zing of the outgoing shell, as loudspeakers in the village instruct residents to take cover in hardened shelters. "We've had six years of peace," he says, "but everything has come back to us."
Around the world, people could be excused for feeling that they too are witnessing something numbingly familiar in the Middle East, like a recurring nightmare that many would rather keep stored in the recesses of memory. But the conflagration involving Israel and its neighbors has erupted once more--and no one knows how bad and destabilizing it may get. Israel's ferocious response to Hizballah's kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers, which came a little more than two weeks after Palestinian militants from Hamas seized an Israeli corporal and smuggled him into the Gaza Strip, has produced the worst Arab-Israeli cross-border conflict since Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982. The great bulk of the pain last week was felt in Lebanon, as Israel bombarded the country, including sites in Beirut, killing more than 100 Lebanese by Saturday evening, almost all civilians. Hizballah, an Islamist Shi'ite group that operates freely in southern Lebanon, killed eight Israeli soldiers in its initial raid July 12 and has since flung hundreds of rockets into Israel, killing four civilians.
For all the mayhem and destruction, the crisis hasn't yet escalated into the kind of full-scale, multicountry war that rocked the Middle East in 1948 or 1956 or 1967 or 1973. But that's not exactly cause for comfort. The lethal exchange of firepower between Israel and Hizballah will likely not let up until someone--the U.N., nervous Arab countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia or possibly the U.S.--intervenes and persuades one or both sides to stop. A British official told TIME that Prime Minister Tony Blair is personally pressing President George W. Bush to send Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to the region to engage in Henry Kissinger-style shuttle diplomacy. But it's not clear that anyone has the ability to get the belligerents to calm down. And the longer Israel and Hizballah keep up their skirmish, the greater the chances it will spread out of control.
Hizballah is the wild card. There is always the possibility it could try to order up terrorist attacks against Israeli and Western targets around the world. If pushed to stop fighting, the group could lash out against its critics in Lebanon, unleashing the forces of civil war that ravaged the highly sectarian country for 15 years until 1990, and creating a new field of instability even as the U.S. struggles with crises in places like Iraq and Iran. Israel's strikes against Lebanon have provoked Shi'ite radicals in Iraq, who are threatening to attack U.S. troops in retaliation. The most chilling scenario is that the Israeli-Lebanese dispute could grow into a wider war, if Hizballah's backers in Iran or Syria decide or are provoked to join the fray--a possibility that grew when Israeli intelligence claimed on Saturday that Iranian forces helped Hizballah fighters hit an Israeli ship off the coast of Beirut, killing one sailor. (Iran denies the charge.) "It will never completely cool down," says Edward Luttwak, senior adviser at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. "When the Israelis have hit enough targets, they'll be inclined to slow down. [But] these things don't get resolved."
That dim view of prospects for peace in the Middle East is widely shared by people on all sides of the conflict. What's driving the violence, and why does it seem so difficult to tamp down? Although the current battles may have been set off by age-old hatreds between Israel and its Arab enemies, what we're seeing today is not simply a replay of hackneyed set pieces in the Middle East. With new governments in place in the three key nodes of the crisis--Israel, Lebanon and the Palestinian Authority--and fighters within the radical Islamist groups--Hamas and Hizballah--eager to assert their agendas, the region is going through a period of dramatic and in some ways radical change. The volatility has added new fuel to the motivations and ambitions that have defined why they fight. And that poses a challenge for the international community--not least a U.S. Administration already waging two wars in the Islamic world. Once the fire is started, can anything be done to put it out?
•WHY THE ARABS FIGHT
To understand why the Arab militants of Hamas and Hizballah are picking a fight with Israel now, you might start with an election. In January, Hamas, which is sworn to Israel's destruction, won the Palestinian general vote. The Hamas political leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniya, who fashions himself a relative moderate, became Prime Minister, and set about trying to prove Hamas could govern. Boycotted financially and politically by the U.S. and the E.U., Haniya in late June hammered out an agreement with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas on a unified platform that would implicitly recognize Israel if it would withdraw to its 1967 borders. Recognizing Israel, though, is anathema to Hamas' hard-liners, who believe that God gave all the lands of the Middle East to Muslims and that the Jewish state therefore is accursed. For those hard-liners, any moves toward accommodation threaten the reason Hamas came into being in the first place. Deterred from attacking by arrests and assassinations, Hamas militants kept a cease-fire from March 2005 until last June, when they began firing rockets again and then, on June 25, decided to try another, daring tactic: they emerged from a tunnel dug under the Gaza fence to kill two Israeli soldiers and nab Corporal Gilad Shalit. Instead of talking about a peace deal, the Palestinian Authority found itself dealing with a rain of Israeli bombardments and border incursions.
Meanwhile, Hizballah, which was created in 1982 to resist Israel's invasion of southern Lebanon, has internal political incentives to act against Israel. In the new Lebanon, genuine independence is trying to take root after popular unrest forced the Syrians to lift their yoke on the country last spring. As a result, whether Hizballah should be allowed to remain armed six years after the Israelis left Lebanon is the most divisive political issue in the country today. Critics argue that only government forces should bear arms. Hizballah counters that given the weakness of the Lebanese Army, a disciplined guerrilla force is needed to deter Israeli aggression. And what better way to remind the country of that aggression than to provoke some by capturing a soldier or two?
Many analysts believe that Hizballah must have carried out the raid with at least the encouragement of the group's main benefactors, Syria and especially Iran. "He who pays the money is the boss," says a Lebanese official, arguing that Tehran engineered the crisis in hopes of deflecting the Bush Administration's drive to impose U.N. sanctions for Iran's suspected nuclear-weapons program. But whatever encouragement they may have had, neither Hamas nor Hizballah ever needs a specific justification for striking Israel. Attacking Israel is, for each, its raison d'être. And the groups' tacticians do not need to think that a particular strike will achieve a particular result. They take a long view, common among Islamists: over timedecades or even centuries, if necessaryIsrael will crumble. Israelis will lose their fortitude under the pressure of attacks, give up and go back to Europe or Russia or, if their roots are in the Middle East, agree to live within an Islamic state. Regardless, the fighters' reward is not here on earth in this lifetime, but in heaven.
But Hizballah and Hamas in this case have a more practical payoff in mind. Israeli governments have proved willing to make big concessions to get back one or two or three of their own captives, even dead ones. (In 2004, Israel swapped 429 prisoners in exchange for an Israeli businessman and the remains of three Israeli soldiers.) The Palestinians now have a tremendous interest in prisoner swaps since the Israelis have achieved the relative quiet of the past few years in part by arresting huge numbers of suspected terrorists and packing jails with more than 9,000 detainees. Securing the release of many of them, by negotiating the return of the Israeli corporal, would make heroes of Hamas. And it would do so at a time when ordinary Palestinians have been grumbling that they may have erred in electing the radical group since the government--bankrupt because of international boycotts--has gone five months without paying salaries to its 160,000 employees.
Hizballah too hopes to profit from aggression. Israel holds only three Lebanese prisoners, but the group's leader, Hassan Nasrallah, grandly noted that he also was making the release of Palestinian detainees a condition for freeing his Israeli captives, which would bring him and his group glory, both in the Arab world and Lebanon's Palestinian refugee camps. And following the abduction with a rain of rockets on Israeli towns and villages may have bolstered the group's ability to intimidate Lebanon's government and force it to ignore the U.N. Security Council's demands that Hizballah's fighters be disarmed. Compared with Hizballah, Lebanon's national army is impotent.
•WHY ISRAEL FIGHTS
The Israelis are determined to show their adversaries that they aren't cowed. That has become clear in Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's announcements that Israel will not negotiate for the return of its soldiers. Israeli officials have long talked of "changing the rules of the game," and Olmert unleashed the military to do just that, setting the price for aggression against Israel so high that its enemies would be deterred from acting up in the future.
Olmert may have been influenced by President Bush, both in his stance of "no negotiations with terrorists" and in his decision to retaliate harshly for the Hamas and Hizballah actions. The post-9/11 era has marked a new high in Israeli-U.S. relations, with Washington abandoning its past practice of criticizing Israel when it acts severely toward the Palestinians or other Arab parties. Starting with former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Israeli officials have taken to adopting Bush's war-on-terrorism rhetoric. Justice Minister Haim Ramon last week said Israel would treat Nasrallah as the U.S. treats Osama bin Laden.
In that context, the abduction of the soldiers was particularly combustible. As it is, such acts strike deep into Israel's soul. It is practically a sacred notion in the Israeli military that nobody is left behind. And because the nation has a citizen's army and Israel's population is so small, hostage taking is felt intimately; if it's not your son or your neighbor's son, it could be.
But provoked by the hostage taking, Olmert's government is also trying to settle other scores. Palestinian militants have been regularly firing homemade Qassam rockets, a Hamas specialty, into Israel from Gaza--some 200 in June and 100 so far in July. Hizballah has occasionally also lobbed rockets across the border since the Israeli pullout. And Israel has watched in dismay as Hizballah has built border fortifications, sometimes 30 feet from Israeli outposts and stockpiled with what Israel estimates to be 13,000 rockets, including upgraded ones that can reach at least as far as the cities of Haifa and Tiberias.
Facing those threats, Israel isn't prepared to show mercy. In the case of Hizballah, especially, the Israelis are going well beyond retribution, taking an opportunity to degrade the organization's capabilities and, perhaps, cripple the group permanently. Said Defense Minister Amir Peretz: "The goal is for this to end with Hizballah so badly beaten that not a man in it does not regret having launched this incident." Most Israelis know the offensive has come at a heavy price--to civilians on both sides, to Lebanon's infrastructure and to Israel's reputation abroad. But from the government's point of view, it is necessary and it is working. Israel claims to have hit many stores of Hizballah's rockets, often within houses. What Israel wants is for the Lebanese to disarm Hizballah, but Israeli realists don't expect the Lebanese to go that far. A demilitarized zone in the south might suffice. The Israelis were heartened to hear that some Arab states and a number of Lebanese politicians were complaining that Hizballah had taken not just the Israeli soldiers but also all of Lebanon hostage.
The assault on Lebanon is intended to send a broader message too, at a time when Israel has largely given up on trying to negotiate for peace and security and instead is trying to establish them on its own. The strongest argument made by domestic critics of Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip last year was that the country's enemies would think it was weak and frightened and thus would be encouraged to strike out. Olmert's dual counterblasts are aimed at changing that impression--among those who believe it--to make the idea of attacking Israel prohibitively scary to the other side or, as the Israelis put it, to re-establish deterrence.
So where might this lead? Is anything remotely approaching quiet, if not quite peace, possible in a place where all the actors see gain in continuing to fight?
As bleak as it now looks, it's not entirely out of the question. The chances are greater in Lebanon, where there are actors with a clear interest in taming Hizballah. As in past flare-ups on the border, coming to terms will almost surely require a third-party interlocutor. "It could be the Red Cross or the Germans, the French, maybe a special adviser to Kofi Annan," says an Israeli intelligence official.
Dealing with Hamas won't be as easy. In Gaza, the main force that has tended to moderate the behavior of the militants has been public opinion, which has sometimes swung against the radicals when their actions prompted Israeli reprisals that punished the population. Now, though, Gazans place the blame for scores of deaths and deteriorating conditions squarely on Israel. Their anger and the prospect of an eventual prisoner exchange are strengthening the militants, which will make it harder for Palestinian Prime Minister Haniya to defend his agreement with Abbas if the current siege ends.
What should the U.S. do? Blair and other allies would like Rice to take a more active role in bringing first calm and then a return to peace talks between the Israelis and Palestinians. Bush has showed no interest in engaging in the region in that way, and Washington is handicapped by its unwillingness to negotiate with four of the key players--Hamas and Hizballah, Syria and Iran--whose interests would have to be addressed. But crises can sometimes provide opportunities, especially since the U.S. can't afford to have another Middle East mess on its hands. At this point, U.S. intervention can't undo the reasons Israel and its enemies fight. But doing nothing is an even bigger risk. And summers in the Middle East can still get a lot hotter.
> For analysis of the latest news from the Middle East, go to time.com
With reporting by With reporting by Christopher Allbritton, Nicholas Blanford/ Beirut, Aaron J. Klein, Phil Zabriskie/ Jerusalem, Scott Macleod/ Cairo, J.F.O. McAllister/ London, Elaine Shannon, Douglas Waller/ Washington, Unmesh Kher/ New York



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Azraael

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« Responder #82 em: Julho 17, 2006, 01:32:07 am »
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Tangled Ties


THE POWER BROKERS

IRAN Helped create Hizballah as a Shi'ite force in Lebanon and continues to sponsor its activities. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has vowed a "crushing response" if Israel moves against Syria

SYRIA President Bashar Assad has disclaimed any ties to Lebanon since the withdrawal of Syrian troops in 2005 but remains a sponsor of
Hizballah and is host to Hamas leaders

THE FACTIONS

HIZBALLAH Formed in 1982, the terrorist group has grown into a national movement under Sheik Hassan Nasrallah. Many in Lebanon credit Hizballah with forcing Israel to end its 18-year occupation in 2000

HAMAS A Palestinian extremist group founded in 1987 and known for directing suicide bombings against Israel. It's now the ruling Palestinian party THE TARGET

ISRAEL Although he lacks significant military experience, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is fighting a two-front battle: against Hizballah to the north in Lebanon and Hamas to the south in Gaza. Olmert has ruled out a prisoner exchange to win the return of kidnapped Israelis, and says the operations in Lebanon will end when Hizballah is disarmed THE

BATTLEGROUND

LEBANON The fragile country is struggling to emerge from decades of conflict and domination by Syria, which has long supported Hizballah and its operations against Israel in the southern part of Lebanon. Newly elected Prime Minister Fouad Siniora claims he is powerless to dislodge or disarm Hizballah forces, but Israel blames the Lebanese government for the recent attacks



http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1214950,00.html?internalid=AOT_h_07-16-2006_tangled_ties
 

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« Responder #83 em: Julho 17, 2006, 09:00:46 am »
Citação de: "papatango"

-1- Como é que você mantem inoperacional uma central electrica a 150 Km de distância sem a destruir ?
Rezando :shock:
Você acha que é viável gastar de 10.000 a 50.000 Euros (10.000 contos) numa bomba guiada a Laser ou com GPS para destruir postes de electricidade que podem ser postos a funcionar 4 a 6 horas depois mesmo durante a noite?
Uma das regras da guerra, é fazer o maior numero de estragos ao inimigo, pelo menor preço possivel.

Sim..numa guerra convencional aceita-se, no entanto, se pensarmos que estão a combater uma entidade num 3º país que é a infelicidade que o mete no conflicto penso que poderiam ter outra abordagem. Vais-me dizer que eles não podem destruir os postes próximos da central e lançar panfletos a dizer que se tentarem reparar durante o conflicto a destruirão por complecto...(parto do princípio que será um conflicto curto, tal como os outros antecedentes, logo sendo desperdício destruir infraestruturas)

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Citação de: "papatango"
Mas meterem lá tropas onde ?
Em cada poste ?
A 150 Km de distância do lugar onde estão as tropas israelitas?

Díficil perceber o sentido...obviamente não é por cada poste, logo não diga coisas estúpidas. Estava a falar na central. Sei que esta se localiza no sul do Libano, e que Israel tem tropas no terreno, logo levantei essa hipótese..

Citação de: "papatango"
Nós nestes fórums, muitas vezes falamos das linhas belas dos aviões ou da beleza dos carros de combate, e esquecemos uma coisa: A guerra não é uma coisa bonita.
As armas foram feitas para matar e para destruir.


Exacto, mas não tem necessariamente que ser até à idade da pedra..o que me chateia é que provavelmente as coisas vão acalmar daqui a uns tempos, e os libaneses terão recuado no tempo uns 20 anos no mínimo..e assim Israel cria a empatia do povo libanês :lol:

Relativamente ao combustível, entendo mais a sua destruição, mas não será um pouco utópico? Não é não é naquela região em que a malta guarda uns bidons de gasolina na garagem?

Não poderiam simplesmente anunciar na rádio, tv, e pelos panfletos que tem  largado que a circulação de veiculos está completamente proibida, podendo estes serem visados?...isso até iria de acordo com a ideia do mini-bus destruido  :roll:

E eu que me congratulei com a saída da Síria do Líbano..mais valia terem ficado lá.....

---------

Como já disse no passado e reafirmo...o problema do médio oriente não será resolvido por armas...a não ser que um lado simplesmente mate todos os outros do outro lado..e mesmo talvez não resolveria...já que existirão sempre sudaneses, tunisinos, marroquinos, etc..dispostos a se oferecer...bem como judeus na america, europa, afins..
 

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Marauder

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« Responder #84 em: Julho 17, 2006, 11:17:08 am »
Citar
Os aviões israelitas destruíram um depósito de água instalado numa colina sobre Saida e situada nas proximidades de uma posição do exército, ferindo três soldados por estilhaços de mísseis, precisou.


de:
http://diariodigital.sapo.pt/news.asp?s ... ews=236406

Aparentemente a água também é alvo estratégico...que será a seguir..os supermercados?
 :evil:
 

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aero

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« Responder #85 em: Julho 17, 2006, 11:38:10 am »
Citação de: "Marauder"
Citar
Os aviões israelitas destruíram um depósito de água instalado numa colina sobre Saida e situada nas proximidades de uma posição do exército, ferindo três soldados por estilhaços de mísseis, precisou.

de:
http://diariodigital.sapo.pt/news.asp?s ... ews=236406

Aparentemente a água também é alvo estratégico...que será a seguir..os supermercados?
 :evil:  :!:
« Última modificação: Julho 17, 2006, 12:01:32 pm por aero »
 

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aero

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« Responder #86 em: Julho 17, 2006, 11:38:53 am »
"Líbano: 40 britânicos evacuadas de Beirute de helicóptero

Quarenta pessoas foram retiradas hoje de manhã de Beirute por helicópteros britânicos, na primeira fase de uma operação de evacuação de britânicos residentes no Líbano, anunciou em Londres o governo britânico.
«Evacuámos hoje de manhã um pequeno número de pessoas, quarenta, todos cidadãos britânicos», afirmou um porta-voz do Ministério dos Negócios Estrangeiros em Londres.

Trata-se de «pessoas vulneráveis, gente com crianças pequenas, pessoas doentes», precisou o porta-voz.

Os cidadãos britânicos foram levados nos helicópteros que trouxeram à capital libanesa o Alto Representante da UE para a política externa, Javier Solana, e duas equipas britânicas, uma civil e outra militar, encarregadas de preparar a operação de retirada dos cidadãos residentes no Líbano.

Londres espera iniciar ao longo do dia de hoje a evacuação, mas o porta-voz disse que vai avançar com a operação à medida que o permita a situação do ponto de vista da segurança.

«[A operação] poderá começar hoje, mais tarde ao longo da jornada, mas isso vai depender das condições de segurança«, declarou o porta-voz.

Navios de guerra britânicos estão já na região por motivo desta evacuação, e dois outros vasos de guerra, o porta-aviões HMS Illustrius e o navio de ataque anfíbio HMS Bulwark, deverão chegar quarta ou quinta-feira."

Diário Digital / Lusa
 

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aero

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« Responder #87 em: Julho 17, 2006, 11:51:36 am »
(CNN) -- CNN.com asked readers affected by the attacks in the Middle East to send us their stories. Here is a sampling of the responses, some of which have been edited:





I am 16, and I am in Lebanon with my two younger brothers. My parents are frantic with worry, but there is no way out. All major roads in the country have been destroyed. We are stuck, and our embassy is not even answering the phone anymore. We have no idea what is going on. All we want now is to go home.
Jenna, Chemstar, Lebanon


I am an American Lebanese who lives in Lebanon; my husband lives in the States. We have three children who live with me in Lebanon... Now I'm here in Florida on vacation with my husband. I was supposed to go back to Lebanon at the end of July, but now I cannot. That is not the problem, the problem is that my three children who are only a 6-year-old girl (Millennia), a 5-year-old girl (Aya), and a 4-year-old boy (Jacob) are stranded alone in Lebanon. I and their dad are stuck here, no way to get there to bring them to the U.S.
Carolina Kmaid, Daytona Beach, Florida

I am a Lebanese-American who is visiting Lebanon for the summer. I was due to return on the 28th of July but now I am stuck and waiting for the evacuation. Lebanon is an amazing country and it is very sad that it is being destroyed this way. We are all hoping and praying that everyone stops bombing and people will quit dying. I have been lucky to be far away from any of the bombings, but it is sad to hear the jets fly over and to hear the bombs exploding in the distance. I can see Beirut from my balcony and even through the smoke I have faith we will rebuild and we will live again and Beirut will be beautiful again.
Ziad Chihane, Deek El Mehdi, Lebanon

I am 17 years old and I just arrived in Turkey. I escaped Beirut two days ago and it was the hardest decision I have ever made. I decided at 6 p.m. that I was going to leave Beirut via the only road left to Syria and then drive till the borders of Turkey. I stayed 20 hours in a bus full of people worried that we could get bombed at any moment. I feel so bad because I left all the people I love there and they are stuck now! This was supposed to be a very good summer with a lot of musical gigs and a lot of tourists, which was very good for Lebanon. I have no idea what's going to happen, I only hope that all of this madness is going to stop as soon as possible. This can't go on this way! This is the 21st century. How can people still think about war?
Janane, Beirut, Lebanon

I came to live in Israel 15 years ago from the United States. At the time I genuinely believed that there was a great opportunity for peace. But now, as I sit here in my home, not far from Haifa, I realize how things have gone terribly wrong and how much things have changed. I used to be a "leftie." Now I am no longer sure how I would define myself. The only thing that comes to mind is "tired and scared." I ask myself, how did this happen? Where did we go wrong? Why are there rockets and missiles attacking all of us? But one thing is for sure, hatred and anger are seeping into my heart. The sympathy and understanding are flowing out. With each Katyusha that lands here, the flow speeds up.
Cheryl, Zichron, Israel

My daughter was studying at the Lebanese American University in Beirut and is a student at Boston College. [The students] have escaped to Byblos with the clothes on their back. She called today in total desperation. The adjoining town of Junieh has been bombed, cell phone towers are down and the Christian enclave they were told would be a safe haven is now under attack. Her plea -- and that of all the students in her group -- was, "Please, mommy, don't let us die here. Everyone is now terrified and desperate. This Christian area of safety is under attack. When are we going to be evacuated?"
Jean Kluck, Farmingdale, New York

......... :down:
 

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aero

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« Responder #88 em: Julho 17, 2006, 11:54:39 am »
"The United States says there are about 25,000 US citizens in Lebanon.

US security teams have landed at the US Embassy in Beirut to start planning the evacuation of Americans.

It has been working on a contingency plan to transport them to Cyprus.

So far about 20 Americans, including non-essential embassy staff and people with medical needs have been flown out of the country by helicopter.

France, which has 20,000 citizens in the country, has chartered a ferry to Lebanon, due to take its first passengers on Monday morning.

Helicopters, landing craft and a mobile hospital would be also available.

Australia, which has around 25,000 citizens living in Lebanon, is drawing up an evacuation plan.

Prime Minister John Howard said the government was doing "everything they can" to arrange a plan for Australians trapped in the country.

The Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister, Peter Mackay, has said the government is putting commercial ships in place to evacuate some of its 16,000 citizens by sea.


Italy has sent a convoy of about 400 citizens from Beirut towards Syria from where Italian military flew them to Cyprus.

Rome is also sending a naval ship and two C130 transport aircraft. It has 1,000 citizens in Lebanon.


Germany has not announced specific plans to evacuate its 1,100 nationals.

The foreign ministry has advised citizens not to travel to Lebanon and told nationals already in Beirut to seek shelter in safer areas.

However there are reports that around 100 Germans have left Lebanon for Syria in several convoys carrying citizens from a number of EU nations.

Poland has said around 150 of its nationals would leave Beirut for the Syrian border in a convoy of buses, due to leave on Tuesday morning.

The Romanian president has called an emergency cabinet meeting to discuss evacuation plans for the estimated 1,000 nationals living in Lebanon.

More than 100 Romanians are already reported to have left through Syria.

Greece said a warship would leave for Lebanon on Sunday night, to return 100 Greeks who had asked to be evacuated.

Earlier, an Olympic Airlines plane took 50 Greeks from Lebanon to Athens via Damascus.

Around 50 Brazilian tourists and workers are believed to be travelling by bus to Adana in Turkey, where an airforce plane is expected to pick them up and fly them home.

Spain, which has already flown around 126 nationals to Madrid, is said to be planning a second operation to fly out more of its 600 citizens in Lebanon.

Austrian nationals were evacuated by bus from Lebanon to Syria on Sunday, along with other Europeans. There are an estimated 120 Austrians living in Lebanon.

Turkey said 32 of its nationals have crossed the Turkish/Syrian border by bus.

Morocco is evacuating several dozen nationals on C130 transport planes.

The governments of 1,600 Ukrainians, 500 Bulgarians, 2,000 Swedes and 600 Dutch are also making contingency plans for those who wish to leave.

The United Arab Emirates is sending six aircraft to bring home citizens who have fled to Syria"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5184134.stm
 

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papatango

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« Responder #89 em: Julho 17, 2006, 12:32:30 pm »
Marauder:
Eu fiz a minha análise da situação tentando colocar-me no lugar dos israelitas.
Eles estão a fazer o correcto do ponto de vista militar.

A central destruída fica na região sul de Beirute, a 80 Km da fronteira

Não é possível combater uma guerra enviando panfletos para o inimigo a avisar que se utilizarem uma infra-estrutura ela será destruída.

Esse tipo de coisa só funciona nas guerras do Raul Solnado e nas guerras do Monthy Pyton. Na guerra a sério, não se mandam panfletos a pedir para que não se utilizem as infra-estruturas.
Isso pura e simplesmente não acontece. Mesmo que a população entenda a mensagem, o movimento terrorista vai utilizar os panfletos para papel higiénico e continuar a enviar foguetes, sem mais preocupações.

Israel não invadiu o Sul do Líbano (terá feito incursões esporádicas). Isso pode acontecer nos próximos dias, mas para isso acontecer é necessário destruir a capacidade de comando e controlo do inimigo.
Foi assim na primeira guerra do golfo, foi assim na segunda guerra do golfo.

Se Israel enviasse grupos de soldados para defender instalações, esses soldados tornavam-se alvo para toda a Hezbolah.

A Hezbolah é um movimento terrorista armado e ao mesmo tempo um partido político que ganha eleições em alguma regiões e ainda por cima tem um exército próprio e ataca um país vizinho.

Imagine que o Partido Comunista no Alentejo, tinha o seu próprio exército e de um momento para o outro começava a mandar mísseis contra a Espanha.
Isto para nós não faz sentido, mas é o que está a acontecer naquele lugar.

A principal votação do Hezbolah está no sul do Líbano desde a região sul de Beirute, até à fronteira com Israel que é exactamente a região de onde partem os mísseis.
A população está claramente ao lado do Hezbolah e apoia-os. Os outrossão obrigados a apoia-los.

Os árabes viram a retirada de Israel do sul do Líbano há anos atrás como uma vitória dos exércitos deles.
Eles não entenderam que numa democracia, é preciso prestar contas e que os governos de Israel têm que responder perante a opinião pública.

Infelizmente, parece que eles não têm (ou não lhes foi ensinada) capacidade para entender as regras da democracia e da convivência pacífica.

Vão ter que entende-las da pior forma, com a provável ocupação do Sul do Líbano, que terá que ser acompanhada pela redução da capacidade militar da Siria.

Aguardemos
 

 

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