"A Guerra" - RTP1

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ricardonunes

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« Responder #15 em: Outubro 24, 2007, 10:19:28 pm »
Potius mori quam foedari
 

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pedro

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« Responder #16 em: Outubro 25, 2007, 01:21:44 am »
E sou tenho uma palavra depois de ver os videos, que excelente trabalho, estao de parabens.
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pedro

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« Responder #17 em: Novembro 05, 2007, 05:09:50 pm »
Alguem ja tem o terceiro episodio??? c34x
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pedro

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« Responder #18 em: Novembro 13, 2007, 04:59:42 pm »
Pois caros amigos eu gostaria de vos pedir para se possivel porem os episodios do documentario no youtube assim eu tambem os posso ver???? :wink:
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Lancero

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« Responder #19 em: Dezembro 07, 2007, 05:10:56 pm »
Alguém ouviu algo sobre esta imensa discussão e polémica? E factos destas "constantes atrocidades"?
Parece que alguém está a querer criar uma agenda  :roll:

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War documentary confronts Portugal with harsh reality of its colonial past in Africa
 © AP
2007-12-07 14:16:28 -

LISBON, Portugal (AP) - The heads of enemy soldiers impaled on roadside trees. Hundreds of prisoners tortured, killed and dumped in mass graves. Napalm dropped on jungles where guerrillas sheltered, and grass-hut villages torched with cigarette lighters.
Those gruesome acts were carried out in Portugal's name barely two generations ago during the country's protracted colonial wars in Africa.
But for most Portuguese the events aren't history. They're news.
A groundbreaking documentary series currently being aired by public broadcaster Radiotelevisao Portuguesa is confronting Portugal with unsettling aspects of its recent history that for decades have been shrouded in silence.
«People had spoken very little about what happened» in the war, said Joaquim Furtado, the Portuguese journalist who created the series. «The effect, I think, has been positive. People won't be able to see things in simplistic terms now.
The series has become a top-rated prime-time program and the most-watched documentary in years, regularly drawing more than 1 million viewers in country of 10.6 million people.
Portugal is the latest European country being forced to address unpalatable aspects of its colonial legacy.
Three years ago, Belgium was shocked by a documentary portraying King Leopold II's brutal 19th-century exploitation of what was once the Belgian Congo.
In 2002, France had to revisit one of the darkest moments of its recent past when a Paris court convicted an aging French general for «complicity in justifying war crimes» in connection with his best-selling book about atrocities during a seven-year war that ended with Algeria's independence in 1962.
Portugal's wars against insurgents fighting for independence erupted in 1961, firstly in Angola _ the jewel in the crown of the country's 500-year-old African empire.
The atrocities came in an initial frenzy of bloodshed after Angolan rebels crossed the border from newly independent Congo and staged surprise attacks. They butchered Portuguese settlers _ including women and their small children _ on remote Angolan plantations.
In retaliation, Portuguese militias and troops sent to quell the insurrection enacted a vicious campaign of repression despite unrelenting pressure from the United States and United Nations for Lisbon to pull out of Africa.
For his documentary Furtado, a well-known journalist with an almost 40-year career, spent more than six years digging up hundreds of hours of film footage and masses of photographs, some never seen in public. He also gathered firsthand accounts from war veterans on both sides, many of whom hadn't spoken out before.
In the former Portuguese colony of Mozambique, the documentary has been greeted with quiet satisfaction rather than rage _ and there have been no calls for an official apology or compensation.
«No one is going to react angrily to the film because it shows the past not the present. The past is the past, the present is the present,» said Custodio Rafael, a journalist with Radio Mozambique.
For Africans, the Portuguese atrocities have long been a simple matter of historical fact. In Portugal, however, it has taken this documentary to explode the nation's myths about its colonial rule, which ended in 1974.
Antonio Salazar's dictatorship, established in the 1930s, kept the public at home in the dark about what was happening thousands of kilometers (miles) away on a different continent. His censors' blue pencils struck out unfavorable newspaper articles, and state media encouraged the war effort with reports of heroic deeds against insurgents classified as bloodthirsty «terrorists.
Within a year the Angolan rebellion subsided into a low-intensity conflict. But parallel wars broke out on the continent's western bulge _ in Mozambique and another Portuguese African colony, Guinea-Bissau.
The Portuguese armed forces were in danger of overreach, even though they had superior NATO weaponry. Despite being a dictatorship, Portugal was allowed into NATO because the alliance feared Moscow-backed opponents of its regime could seize power, giving Communism a Cold War foothold in western Europe.
Salazar _ mindful that the African colonies furnished crucial wealth for his small European nation and lent it a Cold War stature beyond its size _ constructed propaganda to shore up support for the military campaign.
The unremitting government slogan «Angola e nossa!» (Angola is ours!) was even broadcast over loudspeakers at packed summer beaches. Salazar, a flinty and unbending leader, changed the designation of the colonies to «overseas territories» and depicted the native populations as Portuguese who were treated as equals and eager to remain under Lisbon's wing.
Ask just about any Portuguese nowadays about their colonial administration and they will insist it was benign. Few know about any atrocities or cruel treatment of natives. Radio phone-ins and Internet blogs have buzzed with talk of the unimagined facts that have emerged in the TV series.
Luis Quintais, an anthropology lecturer at Portugal's Coimbra University who has written a book about the African conflicts, says the true story of the country's colonial history «has been immersed in a huge silence» and a broad reluctance to address the historical facts.
«We think of our colonization as having been soft, or mild, compared to other (European) countries. But it wasn't, it was just the same,» Quintais said.
Part of the problem is that the new view collides with the Portuguese version of their history, long rendered as the chronicle of a small country of «brandos costumes» _ gentle ways _ bullied by bigger European powers.
«We like to portray ourselves as victims, not victimizers,» Quintais said, adding that the TV series is forcing a reappraisal.
The unwillingness to look back at those times has also contributed to the neglect of war veterans. About 9,000 soldiers were killed and at least 12,000 wounded in what was Portugal's biggest ever military deployment.
Only in 1994 was a monument to the fallen, featuring the names of the dead, built at a riverside fort in Lisbon near where the troop ships left for the war. And post-traumatic stress disorder was officially recognized as a medical condition only in 1999.
«Armies are cheered when they leave and forgotten when they return. It's always been like that throughout history,» said retired Gen. Joaquim Chito Rodrigues, who served for five years in Angola, including a two-year stint as head of operations.
The war's unpopularity among the military and at home, and covert political opposition, doomed Salazar's attempt to resist the tide of history which had led to the departure of other European powers from Africa.
When a 1974 army coup got rid of the dictatorship and installed democracy, the political vacuum filled with mostly leftist political parties that had fought the previous regime and wanted to start with a clean slate.
«Political power was seized by those who had opposed the war. They said, 'It's all in the past now, it shouldn't have happened, let's move on and build a new country,»' said Chito Rodrigues.
Emmanuel Camillo contributed from Maputo, Mozambique.


Fonte
"Portugal civilizou a Ásia, a África e a América. Falta civilizar a Europa"

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« Responder #20 em: Dezembro 07, 2007, 06:08:45 pm »
boas

Tenho quase a certeza, que esta noticia estava-se a referir à violência que surgiu no programa da rtp prós e contras.  :lol:


cump.
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« Responder #21 em: Dezembro 07, 2007, 06:47:24 pm »
Algum apparatchik. Está falándo prós cámarada.
Ai de ti Lusitânia, que dominarás em todas as nações...
 

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Duarte

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« Responder #22 em: Dezembro 09, 2007, 02:01:41 am »
Citação de: "Lancero"
Alguém ouviu algo sobre esta imensa discussão e polémica? E factos destas "constantes atrocidades"?
Parece que alguém está a querer criar uma agenda  :roll:

Muitos familiares meus combateram no ultramar, tios, primos do meu pai, e outros familiares e amigos da família.  Em Angola e Moçambique, incluindo zonas bastante activas de actividade de guerrilha, até na região do Tete.  Já tive muitas conversas longas e francas come muitos deles sobre as suas exepriências. Estas "atrocidades constantes" são casos isolados, que são aproveitados, exagerados e recontados tanta vez, e fazem parte da indoctrinação pós-abrilina, servindo apenas de desculpa pela descolonização irresponsável e criminosa. Na realidade foi a única razão de ser, e objectivo comum das super-potências que osquestraram o 25 de Abril. A descoloniação imediata.
Os "colonizadores" portugueses foram rapidamente substituidos por Cubanos, Russos, RDA, etc..

Já li várias vezes o livro do Sr. Adrian Hastings, "Wiriyamu: My Lai in Mozambique", tão habilmente escrito para incendiar qualquer ser humano sensível e convenientemente editado na altura da visita de estado de Marcelo Caetano ao Reino Unido, em Julho de 1973. O alegado massacre, ocorrera em Dezembro de 1972, 8 meses antes... Porque não denunciaram este crime horrendo logo quanto possível? Razões fortes havia, e nada tinham a ver com os direitos humanos..

Para além de várias incoerências factuais, como por exemplo, afirma que o ataque a Wiriyamu for feito pela 6a. Companhia de Comandos, com Soldados europeus e africanos. Julgo que não era este o caso.. a 6a. era uma unidade de Comandos onde serviram apenas europeus.


Citar
black and white troops of the 6th Commando Group
arrived in helicopters, surrounded Wiriyamu and and entered it.
The people were lined up, men in one group, women in another.
For the most part they were then shot, but others were herded
into houses which were set on fire, while some of the children were
kicked to death and other individuals were murdered in various
atrocious ways. While the work was done by a group of soldiers,
both black and white, and white army officers were present,
some of the orders were given by DGS agents.
Chico Kachavi,
in particular, was back again, and he kept on yelling 'Kill them all.
These are the orders of our chief.'
The massacre at Wiriyamu took some time. Following it, the
troops turned on other villages and hamlets round about. As to
what happened in some places we have no reports-only bodies
were found; but in the village of Chawola, where they seem to
have arrived last and time was probably running out, the people
were simply lined up in a single group, told to clap their hands,
and shot. The bodies were gathered together, covered with straw
and set alight. In this rather hasty operation several people were
only wounded and managed to get away. The troops then returned
to Tete
...

..The soldiers, while they ransacked the hamlet, found a woman,
named Zostina, who was pregnant. They asked her what the sex
was of the child she was carrying. 'I don't know,' she answered.
'You'll soon know,' they said. And, at once, with their knives
they ripped her belly open, yanking out her intestines and her
womb and showing her the foetus, which was struggling convul
sively, and said 'There! Now do you know?' Then, mother and
child were consumed by the flames.
Other soldiers amused themselves by killing children, grabbing
them by the legs and bashing them against the ground or trees..

...A woman called Vaina was told to stand up. She did so, with
her little child Xanu in her arms-a nine-month-old baby. She
fell, picrced by a bullet. The child disengaged itself and sat down
next to its dead mother, crying frantically, but no one was able
to help it. A soldier stepped forward, and it seemed he was going
to comfort it. What a disillusion! Before the horrified eyes of the
people, the soldier kicked the child brutally, slashing its head
open. 'Shut up, dog!' he said. The prostrate child was no longer
crying. It was dead. The soldier turned around, his boot covered
with blood. His companions applauded him. 'Well done!' they
shouted, 'You're a brave man!' That was the start of a macabre
game of football, for his companions followed his example. And
this way, several other children died, kicked to death by the soldiers.”

As acusações do Sr. Hastings, são tão inflamatórias, que apenas podemos deduzir que era esta a sua única razão de ser. Mobilizar a opinião pública mundial contra Portugal.
Os actos de que este senhor acusa as tropas Portuguesas são tão incríveis, tão fora do modo de ser Português, tão horrendas, que nem posso acreditar nelas. A sua credibilidade para mim é nula. A falta de quaisquer provas físicas, fotografias por exemplo, também não abonam nada a seu favor. No mínimo, são um exagero propagandístico, senão mesmo mentira completa. É possível também que o Sr. Hasting foi manipulado por terceiros. Nem é difícil de imaginar como tal poderia ser conseguido.

Para mim é de  enorme importância o facto de ter mencionado a presença de tropas africanas e europeias. Quem eram estas tropas? Há provas de que eram tropas Portuguesas? Fotografias, relatórios oficiais? Testemunhas? Algum índice de verdade? Num tribunal, este case seria muito fraco mesmo.

Acho que existe informação a mais aqui, muito detalhe. Como seria possível uma unidade militar cometer criems de guerra tão horrorosos, e deixar vivas testemunhas tão antenciosas aos detalhes, como o nome duma criança de 9 meses?

Por que raio haveriam de separar homens e mulheres, se o objectivo seria eliminar todos? Para que tanto sadismo? É inacreditável.


Este é um caso a ser estudado com minúcia, pois há aqui muito mistério, muita disinformação, muito boato dado como facto, relatos de terceira e quarta pessoa, que certamente seriam exagerados a cada passo.

Acima de tudo faltam provas físicas de que:

a. houve massacre de civis indefesos (e seriam mesmo civis indefesos?)

b. este massacre foi perpetrado por tropas Portuguesas;

c. se foi de facto massacre efectuado por tropas Portuguesas contra inocentes civis, foi acto isolado, ou práctica comum?






Na foto, o padre Hastings, e o Mário Soares na conferência de imprensa, a 11 de Julho de 1973.



Ora, Hastings, diz 400-500 pesoas massacradas, a cruz Vermelha disse que eram 150. Relatórios oficiais Portugueses falam em menos ainda. Diferença significativa..


Citar
Not since the My Lai atrocities came to light in 1969 had a tiny village caused such an uproar. Father Adrian Hastings, a British Catholic priest, alleged that Portuguese government troops had gone on a murderous rampage in the Portuguese Mozambique village of Wiriyamu last Dec. 16. The priest, quoting reports from Spanish missionary priests, claimed that Portuguese soldiers killed some 400 villagers suspected of sympathizing with Frelimo, the Mozambique Liberation Front.
Then began the denials. Dr. Marcello Caetano, the Portuguese Prime Minister, who was on an official visit to London, said that his government's preliminary inquiry showed a massacre of 400 villagers "could not have taken place." A Catholic bishop in Mozambique who in published reports claimed that he had seen the dead bodies later stubbornly declined either to confirm or deny that there had been a massacre. In Lisbon, officials insisted that Wiriyamu did not even exist. Indeed, Father Hastings two weeks ago placed it in western central Mozambique, but next day corrected himself, saying it was in the eastern Tete province. Reporters have been searching for it ever since, and for anyone who claims to have seen the massacre. TIME Correspondent Peter Hawthorne joined a trek last week and afterward sent this report:
The town of Tete bristles with troops, military roadblocks and armored vehicles. People are being moved out of isolated villages and relocated in protected settlements called aldeamentos, where troops and home-guard units keep Frelimo infiltrators at bay.
A 30-man army escort took us to a place called Wiliamo, about eight miles from Tete. The guide was a black army private who said he knew of the village.
He pronounced it "Wiriamu"—many Africans pronounce "l" as "r"—but wrote it "Wiliamo." It was the only place of that name that he knew in the region, he said. Of course there are villages with vaguely similar names all over the areas variously mentioned by Father Hastings, and presumably any of them could be the massacre site.
The village, perhaps ten to fifteen huts, had clearly been abandoned in a hurry. But there was no obvious sign of a firefight—no bullet marks in the tree stumps or huts. It would require nothing less than a team of forensic experts to track down any evidence of a massacre.
No Angels. "My men aren't angels or they wouldn't be good soldiers," said Major José Carvalho, who led the army escort. "But a massacre of 400? During my two years service here I've never heard of such an incident, and if I did it would be the reason for a large-scale military inquiry."
Two priests of the Spanish Burgos Fathers who earlier supported allegations of the massacre have been detained by Portuguese authorities in Lourengo Marques on unspecified charges "relating to the security of the state." Their fellow priests at the Mission of São Pedro, near Tete, will say nothing. Some Portuguese here believe it is quite possible that a massacre did occur. The secretary of the Bishop of Tete, Father Manuel Mouro, told me:
"In a climate of war anything is possible —but between the possible and the real, there may be a big difference."




Fonte: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,907626,00.html




Realço o facto de Hastings menosprezar os assasinatos pela FRELIMO de chefes africanos (e suas famílias) tidos como colaboradores do regime colonial.
Já agora porque não fala igualmente dos muitos massacres organizados pelos movimentos ditos de "libertação" nos 3 teatros de guerra? Esses sim, foram planificados, e são portanto crimes premeditados e não acidentais como Wiriamu..
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JLRC

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« Responder #23 em: Dezembro 09, 2007, 02:22:26 am »
Sem querer abrir uma polémica estéril, remeto-os para uma reportagem da SIC feita em Wyriamu, com alguns dos militares portugueses que cometeram o massacre e os sobreviventes indígenas do mesmo. Julgo que um dos militares era um alferes comando não me lembro de qual companhia. Julgo também que os militares eram só europeus.
 

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Duarte

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« Responder #24 em: Dezembro 09, 2007, 05:29:18 am »
Infelizmente não consigo encontrar nada sobre Wiriyamu (nem Wiriamu) na SIC online.
Qual o nome da reportagem? Estou interessado em informações sobre o massacre, e "não em discussões estéreis"


 :wink:
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JLRC

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« Responder #25 em: Dezembro 09, 2007, 04:38:55 pm »
Citação de: "Duarte"
Infelizmente não consigo encontrar nada sobre Wiriyamu (nem Wiriamu) na SIC online.
Qual o nome da reportagem? Estou interessado em informações sobre o massacre, e "não em discussões estéreis"


 :wink:


A reportagem passou a mais de um ano e não me recordo do nome. Julgo que foi na SIC mas posso estar enganado. E uma questão de perguntar nos serviços das 3 televisões que eles certamente saberão indicar onde encontrar a reportagem.
 

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Duarte

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« Responder #26 em: Dezembro 09, 2007, 06:38:46 pm »
procurei na RTP e TVI, e nada.. Se alguém tiver mais informações, agradeço.
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Lancero

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« Responder #27 em: Dezembro 09, 2007, 07:32:58 pm »
Passou de facto na SIC. Recordo-me dela.
Mas mesmo no pior dos cenários - Wyriamu ter sido injustificado - penso que tal não fará das NT cometedoras de "constantes atrocidades".
"Portugal civilizou a Ásia, a África e a América. Falta civilizar a Europa"

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« Responder #28 em: Dezembro 09, 2007, 08:17:36 pm »
Se considerarmos que a Guerra Colonial durou 13 anos, invlovendo centenas de milhares de tropas Portuguesas (meio milhão ou perto?), dezenas de milhares de operações ao longo destes anos todos, centenas de operações ocorridas em qualquer dia, interacção com populações civis num ritmo contante, os casos conhecidos de massacres ou maus tratos de civis são bem poucos. A única conclusão que posso tirar é que as tropas Portuguesas seriam das mais bem comportadas da história.

Quais as conlcusões a tirar desta reportagem da SIC? Tinha aluma coisa a acrescentar ao que jé se sabe?

Gostava de saber:

Quem deu as ordens?

Qual o motivo do ataque a esta aldeia? Represália? Informações de que havia lá turras? Qual a fonte destas informações? Era fonte fiável?


Foram de facto mortas mulheres e crianças indefesas, como diz o Sr. Hastings? porquê e a mando de quem?

Houvera rebentamento de minas com vítimas Portuguesas na área?

Seria possível que houve manipulação de informações e acontecimentos com a finalidade de desencadear um massacre pelas tropas Portuguesas, para ser utilizado na guerra da opninião pública? Um Mai Ly Português?
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Lancero

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« Responder #29 em: Dezembro 09, 2007, 08:28:19 pm »
Penso que a reportagem terá sido da Felícia Cabrita. Ela pelo menos fez uma semelhante (levando o comandante da companhia de comandos ao local) para o Expresso - da qual só encontro esta referência (anunciando para a próxima edição)
"Portugal civilizou a Ásia, a África e a América. Falta civilizar a Europa"

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